D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[Enrahim]

No. I'm talking about groups I have either played with or extensively talked to people participating in them over the years. I've pretty rarely seen players complain that the GM was too easy going in his approach regarding authority, but I've hit an awful lot of the opposite.

Interesting. I actually have never come across a IRL person complaining about GM authority abuse. And I have also been reasonably active in the community. It sound like there might be some culture difference somewhere. Are your data from the US by chance? I have heard rumors there might be a difference in prevailing play style compared to Europe where most of my acquaintances come from.

Edit: Also just to be sure - I assume you have been talking to current D&D players. Former D&D players is a relative minority with a very high bias to having had negative experiences with the game.

 

[Faolyn]

Apparently a number of posters feel none of those responsibilities count unless the book codifies them as explicit requirements that have to be followed or...else, I guess?

So how would you suggest that new GMs learn these responsibilities?

 

[Umbran]

I think it depends largely on the stakes. If it's not life and death I do think they take the DM's word as gospel. In that campaign world it is gospel.

I dunno. I once had a player take up 5 to 10 minutes of game time arguing with me about what a piece of particular technology should look like. Never mind that this was under a different technology base than we currently work. Never mind that the character was not proficient with the technology. The player worked for a company that made these devices, so if there was nothing there that looked like that, the "research lab" they were exploring was a fraud....

 

[Micah Sweet]

So, we're back to paying attention to any perverse incentives among players, but not GMs? That's always a really convenient stance to take in this kind of discussion.

Note all of these were not simply hearsay, either. I got to either play or watch some of them. So yeah, I think my position is well founded.

GMs can do what they want anyway. They simply don't have the same incentive. Of course, there are bad GMs and bad players out there. None of this an exact science.

 

[Micah Sweet]

So how would you suggest that new GMs learn these responsibilities?

Reading about them as casual suggestions and advice in the book (not hard rules), and learning about them from more experienced GMs and players.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Interesting. I actually have never come across a IRL person complaining about GM authority abuse. And I have also been reasonably active in the community. It sound like there might be some culture difference somewhere. Are your data from the US by chance? I have heard rumors there might be a difference in prevailing play style compared to Europe where most of my acquaintances come from.

Mostly, though some of the groups involved (the second hand ones to be clear) where in the other Anglophone countries. Note also some of what I'm talking about is decades old at this point; I just don't have too much evidence that the changes here have been--dramatic.

Edit: Also just to be sure - I assume you have been talking to current D&D players. Former D&D players is a relative minority with a very high bias to having had negative experiences with the game.

Note this did not just include D&D players; it covered a lot of trad gamers, because, honestly the game cultures involved all derived from D&D until pretty late in the day (the game costs a long shadow, after all). At the time when the discussion would have been about D&D, it would at least have been from current D&D players.

 

[Thomas Shey]

GMs can do what they want anyway. They simply don't have the same incentive. Of course, there are bad GMs and bad players out there. None of this an exact science.

But the problem is, this is often cases not of "bad" GMs, as in ones intrinsically so. Its GMs who've been taught this is how its supposed to be. And until the culture changes, that's how its going to keep happening.

 

[Lanefan]

Isn't this missing the option that I though was under-discussion --- override the rule?

That would come under "trash the rule".

I mean I think there is a big difference between saying "I'm just going to override this rule" and "This rule is clearly not working - let's agree to change it now".

To me it's one and the same, as rulings set binding precedents for the rest of that campaign.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I dunno. I once had a player take up 5 to 10 minutes of game time arguing with me about what a piece of particular technology should look like. Never mind that this was under a different technology base than we currently work. Never mind that the character was not proficient with the technology. The player worked for a company that made these devices, so if there was nothing there that looked like that, the "research lab" they were exploring was a fraud....

Its sometimes intrinsically hard for people to let simplifications or cinematic conceits in fields they know extremely well go even when they know that's what it is. It just makes their mind itch. Its one reason its a good idea for people who are going to have a topic be particularly important in a game consult with experts on it, but its rarely a good idea to have the expert actually write that part.

 

[Enrahim]

So how would you suggest that new GMs learn these responsibilities?

It seem to me like D&D has given up on producing solid teaching material, rather recognising that D&D community has adapted an apprenticeship approach to teaching new DMs. That is they find a group with an existing DM, learn the ropes of the game by playing, and starts their DMing career by swapping places with the old DM imitating them while getting mentorship from the DM that is still playing with them.

"Actual plays" on youtube also serves as a secondary source of learning for those few that are not able to find a group with an established GM to do apprenticeship with.

I learned to DM from the excellent D&D black box with Zanser's dungeon. I have been told that the current starter set provide nothing of the kind of pedagogic guidance shown there. They seem to rather work as a relatively easy first adventures to run for former players that know the ropes of the game already, but are ready to cut their teeth on the next level - or to be run for new players.