D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[Umbran]

Ah. I think I see the issue. Would it alter your perception if 2 and 3 is ideals that is sought but not actually obtainable?

I'd say that either 1 or 2, taken as stated and absolute, would be a non-starter for me. I would not accept that position from my employer, much less be something I want in a leisure entertainment activity.

The third seems to me more like wishful thinking on the GM's part - the amount of "precise" detail we present as GMs is pitifully small, by comparison even to what one can get just looking around a room, much less inhabiting a world.

 

[Enrahim]

Other than the person I was speaking to. I had assumed that was obvious.

Ok. I then think the reason you are not seeing it more is that this social cost is also so well recognized that people think also that go without saying.

Indeed it might go deeper than that. I was now intending to write some words in recognition of such social cost... And find myself not being able to conjure relevant words when even trying. At least not in any coherent sentence.

Warmth. Smiles. Laughter. Shame. Self doubt. Self affirmation. Belonging. Alienation.

These are all strong social associations I have deeply connected with decissions I have made in connection with TTRPGs. Getting more of the "bad" ones, and less of the "good" ones is a very real and important cost to making bad decissions with regard to the game.

These kind of utterances does clearly not come as natural to me as cold analysis of game concepts. Hope this helped brighten your day, at least a little bit!

 

[clearstream]

That is sure as hell the sentiment I have gotten from the vast majority of people promoting the "traditional GM" approach.

"You WILL adventure in the world I've provided to you. Don't like it? Tough, find a new table."

Can you say why anyone is under an obligation to enter into play under terms they don't enjoy?

I'm thinking of my friend's current interest in running a campaign set in the Hittite civilisation using BRP.

"You will GM the world that I want to play in." Surely that's not how this can go.

 

[SkidAce]

Our social contract is usually pretty generic.

A player completely controls their character, the DM does not. If they say they do it (within the character framework) they do it. Break the adventure, smack the dragon, go shopping for 6 hours. (Even if I think they should be terrified of a THING I only tell them how it appears and they decide if they are scared or not).

DM controls the world, but can take suggestions, just like when I suggest they could be terrified.

 

[SkidAce]

BTW,

The persistence of this thread is exhausting.

 

[Enrahim]

I'd say that either 1 or 2, taken as stated and absolute, would be a non-starter for me. I would not accept that position from my employer, much less be something I want in a leisure entertainment activity.

The third seems to me more like wishful thinking on the GM's part - the amount of "precise" detail we present as GMs is pitifully small, by comparison even to what one can get just looking around a room, much less inhabiting a world.

I agree 1 is having it's own set of problems. I decided to not engage with it in this context as I think a much weaker form is common and what has actually been argued - but that this weaker form still allow for the argument posed.

2 Is also not standing on it's own in terms of formulation here, but I think with the added context from this thread it reasonably stands in for a concept I think can be recognised as a reasonable ideal for the purposes of a particular style of play.

I agree in terms of 3.

 

[AlViking]

And yet in reality that does not happen. Why is that? He has unlimited power given by the DMG, and yet does not ignore the social contract pretty much ever. If it's not the social contract, is it Batman? Does Batman keep it from happening? Or maybe it M&Ms.

Same when breaking the social contract. You make the others angry at you, and in many cases lose them as players and/or friends.

If you strike the social contract down, it shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine.

Great. Now I'm imagining someone crashing through the window throwing candy coated milk chocolate batarangs if I make a decision a player doesn't like.

 

[Maxperson]

Great. Now I'm imagining someone crashing through the window throwing candy coated milk chocolate batarangs if I make a decision a player doesn't like.

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Man! Now I wish I had said Skittles instead of M&Ms.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Would you like me to start pointing it out every time people use openly disparaging, mocking terms for other people's preferences? Because that's what you just did here. I do not want "reality-altering powers". That's never what I've wanted, and I've specifically and explicitly rejected that numerous times in this thread alone. Why are you comfortable mocking my preferences with phrases like "reality-altering powers", but get upset when others use terms they consider accurate, if harsh, for your own?

More importantly, games already aren't the real world. Something we've already discussed. Repeatedly. What "agency" means at a game table is inherently and significantly different from what it means for me as a human being.

I mean, for God's sake, we literally do have people here on Earth who think nobody actually has any agency at all. Superdeterminism and all that.

I thought I was being descriptive. I really consider the ability of a player to change the world outside of the ability of their PC to be reality changing. I'm not using it mockingly. Since you have communicated that the term is offensive to you, allow me to apologize. I'm sorry. I'll find another way to say it.

 

[FrogReaver]

Can you say why anyone is under an obligation to enter into play under terms they don't enjoy?

I'm thinking of my friend's current interest in running a campaign set in the Hittite civilisation using BRP.

"You will GM the world that I want to play in." Surely that's not how this can go.

Social contracts generally mean sometimes I have to do certain things I don’t really want to do so that I will be able to do the things I really want to do at other times.