Rate 4e!

[Vyvyan Basterd]

For the record, legality and morality are not the same thing. Laws can have no basis in right or wrong. The are immoral laws. There have been people in history who have done the right thing, even though it was illegal.
You can say that downloading the PDFs is illegal, but you can't say that it's immoral without backing it up with something more than "It's illegal."
I haven't seen them yet and I can't wait for them to come.

Exactly why I avoided the use of the word "immoral." There is room for debate as to whether downloading the file is immoral or not.

I called it unethical. The ethical ramifications here are much more clear cut. Someone may convince me that the severity of the ethical infraction is minor, but I doubt anyone could build a good argument for an ethical reason to download illegal pdfs.

 

[Pinotage]

But the 4E PHB is the most vanilla, boring generic game manual I've ever seen and gone through. It happens to have a D&D logo on it. And that's it. The art is kind of nice.

-DM Jeff

It's funny, but I was thinking roughly the same thing. 4e is so simplified/gamist in many ways that it appears sterile and boring. I mean, I haven't seen the books or anything, but that's the impression I get from seeing the material out here. They've streamlined it to such an extent that it's now quite sterile and lacks character. Flawless isn't always a good thing.

I'm sure it's a fun game, though, and that with time it will definitely build more character as more options are added. I felt the same thing about True20 in the early days - very sterile system with very few options that it was boring. Thankfully that's much improved and I'm sure 4e will as well.

Pinotage

 

[AllisterH]

It's funny, but I was thinking roughly the same thing. 4e is so simplified/gamist in many ways that it appears sterile and boring. I mean, I haven't seen the books or anything, but that's the impression I get from seeing the material out here. They've streamlined it to such an extent that it's now quite sterile and lacks character. Flawless isn't always a good thing.

I'm sure it's a fun game, though, and that with time it will definitely build more character as more options are added. I felt the same thing about True20 in the early days - very sterile system with very few options that it was boring. Thankfully that's much improved and I'm sure 4e will as well.

Pinotage

But isn't this true of any noncampaign setting game system? Reading say for example GURPS core rulebook will put me to sleep whereas even though I disliked the original WoD system mechanics, I can't argue against it being "nice to read".

 

[DaveMage]

But the 4E PHB is the most vanilla, boring generic game manual I've ever seen and gone through. It happens to have a D&D logo on it. And that's it. The art is kind of nice.

We'll never know the answer, but I wonder how well it would do if it didn't have the D&D logo...

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

We'll never know the answer, but I wonder how well it would do if it didn't have the D&D logo...

Not as well. But that's because the D&D logo carries with it more adventure support than any other game system.

 

[BryonD]

But isn't this true of any noncampaign setting game system?

No. IMO the 3X SRD is exactly the opposite. It begs to be molded and expanded. It is very far from sterile. It might take a little work, but that work is so very very worth it.

 

[lutecius]

yay! first double post. i didn't even know how to make one.

 

[lutecius]

Where is my "as bad as expected but i'm not playing 3e either and i do like polls" option?

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

No. IMO the 3X SRD is exactly the opposite. It begs to be molded and expanded. It is very far from sterile. It might take a little work, but that work is so very very worth it.

People are already molding and expanding 4E to their tastes and the game hasn't even been officially released. From what I've seen it will take a little work to modify 4th Edition in ways that you can enjoy.

 

[BryonD]

People are already molding and expanding 4E to their tastes and the game hasn't even been officially released. From what I've seen it will take a little work to modify 4th Edition in ways that you can enjoy.

I don't doubt it.
My answer to AllisterH's question about "any noncampaign setting game system" remains "no".
I agree with Pinotage's general assessment. That doesn't mean it is a balck and white, yes or no issue, and I don't think Pinotage meant it as an absolute.
IMO, the simplicity design goal, among other things, resulted in a trade off of the readiness for molding and expanding. To me it looks vastly more simple. And sterile. And boring.
Are there specific exceptions here and there? Oh hell yeah, there are some bits and pieces I think are great. But as a whole? Simple, sterile, boring.

 

[jdpacheco]

I don't doubt it.
My answer to AllisterH's question about "any noncampaign setting game system" remains "no".
I agree with Pinotage's general assessment. That doesn't mean it is a balck and white, yes or no issue, and I don't think Pinotage meant it as an absolute.
IMO, the simplicity design goal, among other things, resulted in a trade off of the readiness for molding and expanding. To me it looks vastly more simple. And sterile. And boring.
Are there specific exceptions here and there? Oh hell yeah, there are some bits and pieces I think are great. But as a whole? Simple, sterile, boring.

This is interesting to me because when some of the powers (and flavor texts) were revealed, people were worried that there was going *too much* pre-existing flavor and that they wouldn't be able to have their imaginations insert as much as they wanted it to. Now, people seem to be saying (I'm not saying that it's the same people) that the books are devoid of detail and that there's not enough to work with...

I, personally, have not seen the books. I have to agree, to some degree, that base setting books that are similar in level of inherent flavor to GURPS are not a "bad" thing. It leaves more up to the group to add in later, and it leaves it open for *more* expansion, not less. My guess is that I will find the books to be "simple" in the sense of "easy to resolve complex situations", but I doubt I will think it sterile or boring.

Remember, a good system should make the easy stuff easy, and the impossible stuff possible. 3.x had the tendency to make the impossible stuff possible, but the easy stuff was hard...

 

[der_kluge]

No gnomes, no half-orcs, no bards, no druids, no sorcerers, no cloud giants, no monks, no stone giants. Storm giants are now "evil".

It's just so... different. And almost unnaturally so. I mean, some of the changes I can see, but why drop gnomes and add in dragonborn? I didn't exactly see a lot of demand for dragonborn before 4e. Some of the changes seem to just make no sense, and they did them just... because.

Hell, the entire edition exists just because.

I'm left wondering what my gaming future holds. Pathfinder RPG is looking a little bit better today.

 

[BryonD]

This is interesting to me because when some of the powers (and flavor texts) were revealed, people were worried that there was going *too much* pre-existing flavor and that they wouldn't be able to have their imaginations insert as much as they wanted it to. Now, people seem to be saying (I'm not saying that it's the same people) that the books are devoid of detail and that there's not enough to work with...

To me at least, these are two completely different issues.
The game mechanics, the very way they express the world, are what I am talking about. If you renamed Fireball: Energy Blast IV [Fire], it wouldn't have any impact on that. And if you renamed Fireball: Blast of the Sacred Mountain Quail, it wouldn't have any impact on that.

It has zero to do with flavor and everything to do with mechanics.

 

[BryonD]

Remember, a good system should make the easy stuff easy, and the impossible stuff possible. 3.x had the tendency to make the impossible stuff possible, but the easy stuff was hard...

I believe that if this were an accurate assessment for the consensus of gamers as a whole, then 3.x would not have been remotely as successful as it was.

Frankly, I found that 3.x was really very easy when I wanted it to be.
And when I wanted to put more effort into it, it had the depth to let me push it as far as I ever wanted to.

 

[joethelawyer]

heck, i voted even though i havent seen it....so how accurate is this poll?

 

[Pinotage]

I agree with Pinotage's general assessment. That doesn't mean it is a balck and white, yes or no issue, and I don't think Pinotage meant it as an absolute.

No, definitely not an absolute. I do think that in time 4e will build more character, but the game mechanics as you (BryonD) have pointed out are presently very sterile. Everyting is so 'balanced' that it's like a pure white hospital room. While I don't doubt there's room to manuever, it not really asking to be changed.

Pinotage

 

[Pinotage]

To me at least, these are two completely different issues.
The game mechanics, the very way they express the world, are what I am talking about. If you renamed Fireball: Energy Blast IV [Fire], it wouldn't have any impact on that. And if you renamed Fireball: Blast of the Sacred Mountain Quail, it wouldn't have any impact on that.

It has zero to do with flavor and everything to do with mechanics.

Completely agreed.

Pinotage

 

[DaveMage]

No gnomes, no half-orcs, no bards, no druids, no sorcerers, no cloud giants, no monks, no stone giants. Storm giants are now "evil".

It's just so... different. And almost unnaturally so. I mean, some of the changes I can see, but why drop gnomes and add in dragonborn? I didn't exactly see a lot of demand for dragonborn before 4e. Some of the changes seem to just make no sense, and they did them just... because.

Hell, the entire edition exists just because.

I'm left wondering what my gaming future holds. Pathfinder RPG is looking a little bit better today.

Yep.

 

[Ander00]

It's pretty much exactly what I thought. I like the new rules in general, the aesthetics are rather hit and miss, and the editing leaves much to be desired.


cheers

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

It's exactly what I thought it would be. WoTC I am very disappointed in you.

And just to make it clear I downloaded the torrent (took about 20 minutes) and read through just to check it out. I would say I was shocked but I expected it would be that bad even if I hoped it wouldn't.