Readied actions

[Omnifarious Grey]

See scenario two in my OP. The Cleric now interrupts the Rogue instead of v.v. I've sketched in "any power which grants a bonus to any an ally with any duration other than immediate begins at the end of the current player's turn." The other DM will have a day or so to come up with a loophole for that one.

Sorry, I read it but must've blanked on that. The issue I see is that you are letting players interrupt other character's turns before they are completed. I understand that readied actions can let this happened when the trigger goes off, however, I think the issue is only one if you allow the players to ready against other players. I don't see that they are taking a readied action, but instead are waiting until a teamates takes their turn, therefore they would lower their initiative to below their teammate's and would have to wait until their teammates complete's their turn rather than interrupting the current players turn. This would be similar to having your enemies alternate between actions of each other such as having two enemies finish attacks each against a foe, and then afterwards they decide to move away.

I just suggest making readied actions only work against enemy's actions and you can't get a trigger off of an ally. You would still be able to act after a teammate, but you would have to instead hold oyur action.

This is how I've always interpretted it so I've never really seen an issue.

 

[Nytmare]

What if you said something like "Whenever any power grants a bonus till the end of your next turn, it instead grants its bonus till the end of your next turn, or until it is used, whichever occurs first."

That will cover individual bonuses as well as "each ally" bonuses.

 

[fissionessence]

What if you said something like "Whenever any power grants a bonus till the end of your next turn, it instead grants its bonus till the end of your next turn, or until it is used, whichever occurs first."

That will cover individual bonuses as well as "each ally" bonuses.

That seems like it would solve the exploit mentioned, but it also takes away a lot of potential power that I think the designers meant for this power (and those like it) to have. For example, if the 'buffed' character spends an action point, both attacks should get the bonus. In addition, the character should get the bonus to opportunity attacks against the target, in addition to any attack he makes on his or her turn.

I am curious to know if the OP thinks my solution (in post 6) would work for his purposes; if not, I can try to come up with another fix.

~

 

[DanmarLOK]

Hmm again I'd just go by RAW which only let's you ready an action based on an enemies action. The rogue can't base his ready action on gaining a bonus, nor on an ally casting a spell. Getting hit is not an action. Do you see a way he could cheese a way to get the bonus twice when he can only ready an action based on an enemy action?

Immediate Reaction: A readied action is an immediate reaction. It takes place after your enemy completes the action that triggers it.
Interrupting an Enemy: If you want to use a readied action to attack before an enemy attacks, you should ready your action in response to the enemy’s movement. That way your attack will be triggered by a portion of the enemy’s move, and you will interrupt it and attack first. If you ready an action to be triggered by an enemy attack, your readied action will occur as a reaction to that attack, so you’ll attack
after the enemy. Note that an enemy might use a power that lets it move and then attack. If you readied an action to attack in response to that enemy’s movement, your readied action interrupts the movement, and you can attack before the enemy does.

That seems to rule out "I attack when the cleric casts the spell", "I attack when I get the bonus.", "I attack when the enemy is hit." , "I use the power when the rogue moves next to the creature." None of those work because it's not based on an action by the enemy. The enemy can't react (under normal circumstances) during the cleric's turn so the rogue can't go during the cleric's turn and end up in initiative order before the cleric he can only go during an enemy turn and end up in front of that enemy in the initiative order.

So to look at your specific examples -

Rogue: I ready power A against monster B after the Cleric attacks B. (ends turn)
(any number of intervening players and/or monsters)

Can't do this because he's basing his ready on an allies actions -

Cleric: I attack monster B (and hit), giving a power bonus to the Rogue until the end of my next turn.

Rogue: I interrupt the Cleric's turn and take my readied action with the power bonus. (this moves the Rogue into order immediately ahead of the cleric).

Can't do this because again he's basing his ready on the cleric's actions.


The other example:

Cleric: I ready Righteous Brand for when the Rogue is next to X.

Can't do this because cleric is readying action based on rogue's actions which is again not an enemy.

Rogue (moves next to X).

Cleric: (uses readied action)

Isn't triggered by an allies actions.

Rogue: attacks with power.


In a complete aside if you're having these kinds of problems with your players that you need to house rule this kind of cheese well you have my condolences.

 

[deleteme123456]

So far I think it does; other DM hasn't chimed in yet. He does better at keeping up with e-mail when he's at work.

 

[Alex319]

Well, I'm not sure that the "only ready against an enemy attack" thing is correct. IIRC, one of the recommended tactics for monsters was to have monster A move next to the PC and then ready an action to attack when monster B gets into flanking position, so they could both get a flanking bonus.

But anyway, here's the simplest solution I can come up with.

After a readied action, the character moves to AFTER the interruptee in the initiative order.

If a character uses a readied action to apply any effect that gives a bonus to the interruptee, then the effect starts at the end of the interruptee's current turn.

 

[Kzach]

RAW it's possible to get the bonus twice if it's a bonus that lasts until the end of the cleric's next turn.

So?

Why penalise players for playing smart?

 

[Josep]

Although I certainly understand the reading of immediate interrupts in the PHB that says actions can only be readied in response to an enemy's action, I don't think it does justice to the entire section.

The "Interrupting an Enemy" section deals with a subset of interrupts - if you want to interrupt an enemy after it moves and before it attacks. It is a common case, but certainly not the only case. It does not, for example, address how to ready an action for after an enemy attacks, even though there are cases where one wants to do that.

The description of an immediate interrupt:

When you ready an action, you prepare to react to a creature’s action or an event. Readying an action is a way of saying, “As soon as x happens, I’ll do y.”

The above section doesn't in any way, shape, or form imply that only enemies are valid cases for readied actions. Importantly, the section under 'Choose Trigger' doesn't specify that the trigger must be an enemy.

Reset Initiative: After you resolve your readied action, move your place in the initiative order to directly before the creature or the event that triggered your readied action

If only enemies can trigger readied actions, why is the event clause in the above quote? Events aren't normally enemies. (DMG simply references 'creature' on pg. 38). I'll certainly admit that I think the PHB is somewhere between muddled and contradictory on the point, but I don't think it is clearly intending to limit readied actions to being triggered by enemies.

I'm also dubious about forbidding readied such as "When the door opens, I'll shoot the first enemy I see," or "When an ally flanks BBEG, I'll stab him with Piercing Strike." or "When the river sweeps the drowning boy under the bridge that I'm standing on, I'll grab the boy."

 

[Josep]

After a readied action, the character moves to AFTER the interruptee in the initiative order.

The above represents a massive weakening of the readied action. Readied actions are somewhat weak because it is uncontrolled when the action will trigger, how circumstances may have changed, and whether one will actually want to take the action. For example, I've seen monsters' ready actions for flanking against a ranger only to have Yield Ground be used in response to a missed attack. Voila, the readied actions aren't so useful. Yielding turn order further weakens the action since one might as well simply either delay or find another standard action. Consider the simple case of Hero and Villain.

RAW: It's the hero's turn. He moves, and readies an action. The villain moves, triggering an attack from the hero. The villain then attacks. The hero now has his turn again, and the hero has hopefully benefited from the readied action.

Proposed Change: It's the hero's turn. He readies an action. The villain moves and the hero interrupts. The hero now drops in turn order after the villain, so the villain goes again. The hero has lost a standard action.

If that's confusing to see, consider the three creature case with this order: Hero (Readied), Villain, Fighter. After the villain's turn, the turn order is now Villain, Hero (just acted), Fighter. The fighter gets his turn, and then we're back to the Villain. So now the Villain gets another turn. Now despite the hero going first, he's gotten one turn and the villain has two. In the original case, the Hero gets two turns before the villain gets two.

If a character uses a readied action to apply any effect that gives a bonus to the interruptee, then the effect starts at the end of the interruptee's current turn.

These modifications do solve the OP's problem, I think.

 

[fissionessence]

These modifications do solve the OP's problem, I think.

I agree. This is also the same exact change I proposed to the power in question, righteous brand up in post 6.

~