D&D 5E Ready action before combat starts? Advantage on initiative?

[Hriston]

And that leads to the situation where both groups are readied to fire at each other when they come into sight. Which order do they fire in? It's not determined by the ready action... it's determined by this little thing called initiative.

I disagree. Readied actions are resolved right after the completion of the triggering event. If both sides have chosen the same trigger, i.e. the opening of the door, then the resulting fire would happen simultaneously, with both sides possibly taking casualties. If players are prone to readying such actions, however, I would tend to set up situations where they end up firing upon friendly creatures.

 

[Paraxis]

If players are prone to readying such actions, however, I would tend to set up situations where they end up firing upon friendly creatures.

They can always choose not to take the readied action and ignore the trigger.

"When the trigger occurs, you can either take your reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger. Remember that you can take only one reaction per round."

 

[Smoo]

They can always choose not to take the readied action and ignore the trigger.

"When the trigger occurs, you can either take your reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger. Remember that you can take only one reaction per round."

If a character wants to take the time to process IFF before firing, that to me justifies making them wait until initiative. When I was talking about allowing a readied action, I was referring to the edge case where they declare that they're attacking whatever they see. And in that situation, I'd force them to carry through on the attack.

I reiterate that playing with this option does not play well with strict adherence to RAW, and therefore quoting rule semantics is not really relevant. It requires improvising and common-sense filtering.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

Quote Originally Posted by MerricB:
And that leads to the situation where both groups are readied to fire at each other when they come into sight. Which order do they fire in? It's not determined by the ready action... it's determined by this little thing called initiative.

I disagree. Readied actions are resolved right after the completion of the triggering event. If both sides have chosen the same trigger, i.e. the opening of the door, then the resulting fire would happen simultaneously, with both sides possibly taking casualties. If players are prone to readying such actions, however, I would tend to set up situations where they end up firing upon friendly creatures.

I agree with your disagree, but disagree with your thinking. Let me 'splain....no, t'would take to long. Let me sum up...

It seems that after 5 pages of thoughts and post it is obvious to me that the "Ready", "Surprise" and "Initiative" rules don't fit with this scenario. Each have parts that fit...but not comfortably. Luckily for us 5e has a rule to cover that. It's called DM adjudication.

If a situation doesn't fit a rule, or you can't find a rule to cover some situation...ignore all the f'in rules and just make a ruling! Seriously. I don't know how many time I have said this...when in doubt, make it up.

In the situations above here's how I would play it out:

Players: We get ready to shoot. Bill opens the door and we let fly the arrows and slings at the enemies beyond!

DM: Ok. Bill flings open the door and you see bandits with crossbows pointing at you guys. Roll to hit [I also roll to hit for the bandits against those who can be seen, randomly determining which bandit shoots at which PC].

---hits are noted, damage is rolled---

DM: Ok, two bandits are down, three remain that you can see. What does everyone want to do? Then roll Initiative.

That's how it would play out in my game. The whole "surprise, initiative, ready, whatever" rules don't fit well enough to be used...so I don't use it. Oh, and, IMNSHO, that's the way the game is supposed to be played. If your game just came to a grinding halt for more than a minute if/when this situation showed up, you're doing it wrong. Make a ruling that is reasonable and fair and keep the game moving. Nobody will care about rules minutia or other rule-lawyering shenanigans if they are all having fun trying to overcome the bandits, pressing onward deeper into the dungeon, and keep on trying to recover the Magic Foozle from the Undead Bandit Lord of the Haunted Maze.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Shadowdweller00]

Yeah, I would recommend using stealth and potential surprise to address this situation rather than readied actions. Personally speaking: I'd impose disadvantage on the PCs' perception checks since the at the time of the stealth check the bandits cannot possibly be seen, only heard. I might ALSO give the bandits advantage on their stealth checks depending on how they chose to conduct the ambush. Sitting still or otherwise not moving for example would probably result in an advantaged stealth because of a reduced risk of noisemaking. The PCs' general readiness would already be reflected by their ability to set positions, buff up beforehand, and/or choose when to open the door in the first place. (Or to do things like open the door only part way so as to give themselves cover).

 

[Smoo]

If a situation doesn't fit a rule, or you can't find a rule to cover some situation...ignore all the f'in rules and just make a ruling! Seriously. I don't know how many time I have said this...when in doubt, make it up.

Yes. This. I agree with everything you just posted. But *especially* this. So much this.

 

[Hriston]

They can always choose not to take the readied action and ignore the trigger.

"When the trigger occurs, you can either take your reaction right after the trigger finishes or ignore the trigger. Remember that you can take only one reaction per round."

Good point, but what I was getting at was if the first thing they do is shoot, then they don't really have the opportunity to ascertain the attitude of their targets. I was imagining a situation in which that was somewhat ambiguous, not one in which they bust down the door and find someone who is obviously friendly, like someone they already know to be friendly. In that case I would expect them to hold their fire, of course.

 

[Celtavian]

Hello, EN World! First time poster here. Apologies if this has been discussed, but I didn't find any answers when I searched the forums.

My question may be better presented through a particular situation, so here goes...

The party walks into a room full of bandits and kills them.
There's a door in the room, and on the other side is another room full of bandits who hear the combat.
The party opens the door.

The party is prepared for anything, but so are the bandits, so neither get surprise (yes?). However, it seems plausible that the bandits, while listening to the combat in the next room, might prepare themselves to perform a particular action if the door opens. For example: One of the bandits might prepare to fire his shortbow at whatever comes through the door the moment it opens. This sounds like it could be a 'ready' action, but technically a 'ready' action is taken on one's turn after initiative has been rolled and combat is underway.

My question is threefold:

(1) Despite the rules for a 'ready' action, would it be appropriate to allow the bandit to take such an action before combat begins? Realistically speaking, if someone was breaking down my front door, I could stand ready with my shortbow and fire at them the moment they opened the door before they could take action against me.

(2) If allowing the bandit to take a 'ready' action isn't suitable for this situation, would it be appropriate to give him advantage on his attack roll? I'm not sure that makes sense. What about giving him advantage on his initiative roll? That may be a better idea.

(3) If any of the alternatives I've presented here are appropriate, and the party and bandit roles were reversed, would it be sensible to treat the party accordingly?

Any thoughts on this?

Thanks!

You could handle this by rolling initiative well before the door is opened determining both sides are effectively in combat including the bandits are on the other side of the door (since they would have heard the battle well in advance). Thus allowing them to take actions on their initiative according to when you determine they heard the battle (which could be a few to several rounds before the party opens the door). You don't necessarily need to see someone to roll initiative. When someone is hiding, you still roll initiative when they are about to attack even though the party or enemy can't see them. I see no reason why a group of bandits on the other side of a door that have clearly heard a battle and are readying for it cannot roll initiative and take preparatory actions to answer someone coming through the door and vice versa if the party is in a similar situation.

Once the party opens the door, the battle will continue from the other room including spell durations. So you're well within the rules to allow initiative to be rolled for the bandits in the other room even if they don't come through the door to help their buddies.

 

[Hriston]

Hiya!





I agree with your disagree, but disagree with your thinking. Let me 'splain....no, t'would take too long. Let me sum up...

It seems that after 5 pages of thoughts and post it is obvious to me that the "Ready", "Surprise" and "Initiative" rules don't fit with this scenario. Each have parts that fit...but not comfortably. Luckily for us 5e has a rule to cover that. It's called DM adjudication.

If a situation doesn't fit a rule, or you can't find a rule to cover some situation...ignore all the f'in rules and just make a ruling! Seriously. I don't know how many time I have said this...when in doubt, make it up.

In the situations above here's how I would play it out:

Players: We get ready to shoot. Bill opens the door and we let fly the arrows and slings at the enemies beyond!

DM: Ok. Bill flings open the door and you see bandits with crossbows pointing at you guys. Roll to hit [I also roll to hit for the bandits against those who can be seen, randomly determining which bandit shoots at which PC].

---hits are noted, damage is rolled---

DM: Ok, two bandits are down, three remain that you can see. What does everyone want to do? Then roll Initiative.

That's how it would play out in my game. The whole "surprise, initiative, ready, whatever" rules don't fit well enough to be used...so I don't use it. Oh, and, IMNSHO, that's the way the game is supposed to be played. If your game just came to a grinding halt for more than a minute if/when this situation showed up, you're doing it wrong. Make a ruling that is reasonable and fair and keep the game moving. Nobody will care about rules minutia or other rule-lawyering shenanigans if they are all having fun trying to overcome the bandits, pressing onward deeper into the dungeon, and keep on trying to recover the Magic Foozle from the Undead Bandit Lord of the Haunted Maze.

^_^

Paul L. Ming

You disagree with my thinking because I referenced a rule? The OP did ask about the Ready action and its timing in, or out of, combat, so that's ostensibly what we're talking about. While I don't object to using healthy doses of "DM adjudication", I disagree with the sentiment that the rules don't fit the OP's situation, or that attempting to apply them would bring the game to a grinding halt.

The party walks into a room full of bandits and kills them.
There's a door in the room, and on the other side is another room full of bandits who hear the combat.
The party opens the door.

Here's how I would adjudicate this situation by simply following the rules for a combat encounter:

The encounter begins with the party coming face to face with the first group of bandits. The second group of bandits are not making enough noise for the party to notice their presence, and since the battle hasn't started yet, I'd assume that the second group of bandits are unaware of the presence of the party. So without rolling for stealth or anything, I've determined that the second group of bandits are going to start the encounter in a surprised state (DM adjudication).

Initiative is rolled for all, and the battle ensues. During the first round, the second, surprised group of bandits becomes aware of the party because of the sounds of battle on the other side of the door. During the second round then, being cowardly sorts who don't come to the aid of their fellow bandits, they Ready actions set upon the trigger of the party coming through the door. Depending on how long it takes the party to kill all of the first group of bandits, the second group will be using their actions on every round to hold, or refresh, their readied actions until the trigger occurs, at which point they could use their reactions, if they so choose, to complete their readied actions, shooting at the party as soon as the door is opened.

It really isn't very complicated and, to my mind, is exactly how the rules suggest an encounter be conducted. Of course, you are free, and encouraged, to adjudicate in whatever way that seems best to you and your group.

 

[Ellsworth]

In the situations above here's how I would play it out:

Players: We get ready to shoot. Bill opens the door and we let fly the arrows and slings at the enemies beyond!

DM: Ok. Bill flings open the door and you see bandits with crossbows pointing at you guys. Roll to hit [I also roll to hit for the bandits against those who can be seen, randomly determining which bandit shoots at which PC].

---hits are noted, damage is rolled---

DM: Ok, two bandits are down, three remain that you can see. What does everyone want to do? Then roll Initiative.

...The whole "surprise, initiative, ready, whatever" rules don't fit well enough to be used...so I don't use it...

I like it. However, your post simply combines and rephrases what others have said in this thread, but that's a good thing. The situation you describe here is essentially the same as both sides (bandits and party) taking a ready action before the party opens the door, then attacking simultaneously - after which initiative is rolled.

If a situation doesn't fit a rule, or you can't find a rule to cover some situation...ignore all the f'in rules and just make a ruling! Seriously. I don't know how many time I have said this...when in doubt, make it up.

I completely agree. However, I think the DM's rulings need uniformity. My opinion is that if the DM makes a ruling then he/she better be prepared to make the same ruling for similar circumstances in the future, or at least somewhere in the ballpark. Therefore, a logical reason for making a ruling needs to be presented so it can be referred to in the future. In essence, this is creating a rule.