D&D 5E Ready action before combat starts? Advantage on initiative?

[ExploderWizard]

If you had surprise in AD&D 1E, it was odd. You could get 1 or 2 (typically) segments of actions, where you could attack in each segment equal to a full round... and the rate of fire of missile weapons was tripled (whatever that meant in practice, I'm unsure).

Cheers!

In practice, it meant that if you got caught with your pants down and were surprised for longer than 1 segment, then you were most likely done for.

It seems to me that letting the bandits go first - 1 readied action, then PCs - is much better & more appropriate than using Surprise. Surprise lets one side potentially act twice with 2 full sets of actions and is much more powerful than 1 readied action.
However if the PCs also readied actions - "we kick in the door then we unleash fireball" type stuff - I might roll init to see who goes first.

Generally, in these situations, with both parties being on high alert and planning to get the drop on whatever is behind a door with time to set up, get position, etc, I think fighting a round of simultaneous combat, then rolling initiative is the way to go. Assume everyone's FIRST action happens at once then whoever is still standing rolls initiative.

One of the things I LOVE about group initiative- simultaneous action. Both sides could ready fireballs and wipe each other out.

 

[iserith]

Hello, EN World! First time poster here. Apologies if this has been discussed, but I didn't find any answers when I searched the forums.

My question may be better presented through a particular situation, so here goes...

The party walks into a room full of bandits and kills them.
There's a door in the room, and on the other side is another room full of bandits who hear the combat.
The party opens the door.

The party is prepared for anything, but so are the bandits, so neither get surprise (yes?).

Right. In order to get surprise, the bandits must take steps to try and be stealthy.

However, it seems plausible that the bandits, while listening to the combat in the next room, might prepare themselves to perform a particular action if the door opens. For example: One of the bandits might prepare to fire his shortbow at whatever comes through the door the moment it opens. This sounds like it could be a 'ready' action, but technically a 'ready' action is taken on one's turn after initiative has been rolled and combat is underway.

That's not necessarily so. Not all actions one can take in combat are limited to combat. The DM has to look at how appropriate it is in the fiction and then adjudicate fairly, applying the rules if there is uncertainty in the outcome.

My question is threefold:

(1) Despite the rules for a 'ready' action, would it be appropriate to allow the bandit to take such an action before combat begins? Realistically speaking, if someone was breaking down my front door, I could stand ready with my shortbow and fire at them the moment they opened the door before they could take action against me.

Yes. If the DM thinks it is certain that the bandit would be able to take this action before the PCs have a chance to react, then that's what happens. If the DM thinks it is uncertain, then roll initiative, perhaps with advantage. Notably, the DM might say that this action takes place outside of anything that interacts with surprise. Therefore, the Alert feat doesn't apply, nor the barbarian's Feral Instinct, for example, plus the PCs still get reactions.

(2) If allowing the bandit to take a 'ready' action isn't suitable for this situation, would it be appropriate to give him advantage on his attack roll? I'm not sure that makes sense. What about giving him advantage on his initiative roll? That may be a better idea.

Both are suitable calls, given appropriate justification in the fiction.

(3) If any of the alternatives I've presented here are appropriate, and the party and bandit roles were reversed, would it be sensible to treat the party accordingly?

Yes. It's the situation that matters first in my view. The rules are only brought into play to resolve uncertainty that the DM establishes.

 

[S'mon]

Generally, in these situations, with both parties being on high alert and planning to get the drop on whatever is behind a door with time to set up, get position, etc, I think fighting a round of simultaneous combat, then rolling initiative is the way to go. Assume everyone's FIRST action happens at once then whoever is still standing rolls initiative.

That sounds like a good approach to emulate the 3-second bar massacre in Inglorious Basterds.

 

[the Jester]

(1) Despite the rules for a 'ready' action, would it be appropriate to allow the bandit to take such an action before combat begins?

No. Never allow this, never ever ever. It's opening a huge can of worms and you don't want to go there. For example: "Before we open the door, I ready an attack!" Another: "Every golem and undead on guard, anywhere, ever, will have a readied action to attack intruders, because why wouldn't they? Neither food nor sleep apply." Just don't.

(2) If allowing the bandit to take a 'ready' action isn't suitable for this situation, would it be appropriate to give him advantage on his attack roll? I'm not sure that makes sense. What about giving him advantage on his initiative roll? That may be a better idea.

That's probably the best choice, if you really feel that this warrants any kind of advantage at all. Personally, as I said, the can of worms is so large that I just don't go near it. Just because you're ready to go doesn't mean that someone else can't get the drop on you anyway.

(3) If any of the alternatives I've presented here are appropriate, and the party and bandit roles were reversed, would it be sensible to treat the party accordingly?

Yes. Good for the goose is good for the gander- which is an important lens to examine rulings through. "Would I allow both the party to do this, and allow npcs to do this to the party?"

 

[Smoo]

No. Never allow this, never ever ever. It's opening a huge can of worms and you don't want to go there. For example: "Before we open the door, I ready an attack!" Another: "Every golem and undead on guard, anywhere, ever, will have a readied action to attack intruders, because why wouldn't they? Neither food nor sleep apply." Just don't.

It's a pretty tiny can of worms.

Most sentient creatures need a beat to process data through IFF systems before attacking, a good justification for initiative. And undead and golems move pretty slowly, so the party will almost certainly be alerted before they can shamble over and execute their action. But not only does a readied action make a party feel good for preparing for the battle well, it can really create a fun dramatic start to a combat when done against the party. If you like a survival horror feel to a crawl, it's almost necessary.

 

[Ultramegolas]

The way I see surprise and initiative is a quick draw reflects situation. If I was running the adventure the bandits in the next room would clearly hear the sound of battle and there would be no surprise. The PC's will have a chance of hearing furniture moving in the next room. The PC's may break through to the next room quicker than anticipated winning the initiative but the bandits will be firing their crossbows from the partial cover of their upturned tables.

 

[iserith]

No. Never allow this, never ever ever. It's opening a huge can of worms and you don't want to go there. For example: "Before we open the door, I ready an attack!" Another: "Every golem and undead on guard, anywhere, ever, will have a readied action to attack intruders, because why wouldn't they? Neither food nor sleep apply." Just don't.

I don't see the issue. Fine, the player readies an attack for his or her character. If the PCs are surprised, then there are no reactions and thus no readied action may go off. If the PCs are not surprised, the DM decides whether the PC who readied gets the attack off (DM establishing certainty) or whether something else may go off before it (DM establishing uncertainty) and thus initiative is rolled.

Same goes for the monsters.

 

[the Jester]

I don't see the issue. Fine, the player readies an attack for his or her character. If the PCs are surprised, then there are no reactions and thus no readied action may go off. If the PCs are not surprised, the DM decides whether the PC who readied gets the attack off (DM establishing certainty) or whether something else may go off before it (DM establishing uncertainty) and thus initiative is rolled.

Same goes for the monsters.

Here is a scenario to illustrate for you. The pcs are in a dungeon in which the inhabitants live near each other but don't back each other up- a not-atypical set up for a dungeon, frankly. Every combat, nearby enemies are alerted, which then all ready actions to attack intruders on sight and stay keyed up for quite a while- hours, probably. So every nearby monster has a readied action for intruders.

But it gets worse. Every pc readies an action to attack whatever's in the room when the one guy without a readied action throws the door open. So suddenly, everyone in the combat has a readied action. Is this all simultaneous? Who goes in what order? You can sort that all out, of course, or rule how you like on it, but what's the point? Either you're just saying "Everyone roll for initiative" anyway, or it's all simultaneous and there's no first strike opportunity for anyone- and often, taking out one or more enemies before they can act is a huge part of pc success.

When it gets to this ridiculous extreme- and there is absolutely no reason why it shouldn't if you allow readied actions off of initiative in the first place- it becomes self-defeating.

Here are another couple of instances, which I mentioned upthread- constructs and undead. Smoo said:

And undead and golems move pretty slowly

...which is true for most golems and for select undead. (It's hard to argue that a vampire or ghoul moves especially slowly.) But so what? The whole point of a readied action is to trump initiative. Golems on guard don't get bored, don't need to rest, and can essentially ready an action indefinitely- and they don't need to shamble on over anywhere if they stand by the door they're guarding. Undead are similar; no need to rest, and in some cases, they're bound to follow their master's instructions. "Be ready to attack any intruders that come through that arch!" Suddenly every undead guard ever absolutely ought to have a readied attack at all times. So should every golem ever. Why wouldn't you order it to, if it's on guard duty?

No, I think it's better to stick to surprise and initiative, and in some cases to grant advantage on initiative. Obviously, YMMV, but I think the can of worms goes deep. "Ready" is a combat action, used when the group is acting on initiative, and I think it's a bad move to allow it outside of combat. It's possible that this is a playstyle thing- I don't claim to be objectively correct here, just to have a strong opinion that has held since 3e.

 

[iserith]

Here is a scenario to illustrate for you. The pcs are in a dungeon in which the inhabitants live near each other but don't back each other up- a not-atypical set up for a dungeon, frankly. Every combat, nearby enemies are alerted, which then all ready actions to attack intruders on sight and stay keyed up for quite a while- hours, probably. So every nearby monster has a readied action for intruders.

But it gets worse. Every pc readies an action to attack whatever's in the room when the one guy without a readied action throws the door open. So suddenly, everyone in the combat has a readied action. Is this all simultaneous? Who goes in what order? You can sort that all out, of course, or rule how you like on it, but what's the point? Either you're just saying "Everyone roll for initiative" anyway, or it's all simultaneous and there's no first strike opportunity for anyone- and often, taking out one or more enemies before they can act is a huge part of pc success.

When it gets to this ridiculous extreme- and there is absolutely no reason why it shouldn't if you allow readied actions off of initiative in the first place- it becomes self-defeating.

First, this sounds like a pretty ridiculous situation, contrived to try and make a point rather than be representative of actual play.

Even so, the DM has control over whether a monster chooses to ready or not and whether that readied action, in the face of the player's strategy and tactics, has a certain or uncertain outcome.

Finally, it's easy to sort out - you just say who goes before who (establish certainty) or you can ask for initiative (establish uncertainty). Or resolve that which is certain first, then roll initiative as the case may be.

...which is true for most golems and for select undead. (It's hard to argue that a vampire or ghoul moves especially slowly.) But so what? The whole point of a readied action is to trump initiative. Golems on guard don't get bored, don't need to rest, and can essentially ready an action indefinitely- and they don't need to shamble on over anywhere if they stand by the door they're guarding. Undead are similar; no need to rest, and in some cases, they're bound to follow their master's instructions. "Be ready to attack any intruders that come through that arch!" Suddenly every undead guard ever absolutely ought to have a readied attack at all times. So should every golem ever. Why wouldn't you order it to, if it's on guard duty?

Again, the DM controls whether a monster has a readied action or not. You speak as if the DM doesn't have control over this or that, if he or she fails to have certain monsters do it, that players will complain about it.

No, I think it's better to stick to surprise and initiative, and in some cases to grant advantage on initiative. Obviously, YMMV, but I think the can of worms goes deep. "Ready" is a combat action, used when the group is acting on initiative, and I think it's a bad move to allow it outside of combat. It's possible that this is a playstyle thing- I don't claim to be objectively correct here, just to have a strong opinion that has held since 3e.

Cast a Spell is also a combat action. So is Help, Hide, Search, and Use an Object. Should these actions only be used in combat?

Rule and play however you like, of course. I just think it's much ado about nothing.

 

[Smoo]

...which is true for most golems and for select undead. (It's hard to argue that a vampire or ghoul moves especially slowly.) But so what? The whole point of a readied action is to trump initiative. Golems on guard don't get bored, don't need to rest, and can essentially ready an action indefinitely- and they don't need to shamble on over anywhere if they stand by the door they're guarding. Undead are similar; no need to rest, and in some cases, they're bound to follow their master's instructions. "Be ready to attack any intruders that come through that arch!" Suddenly every undead guard ever absolutely ought to have a readied attack at all times. So should every golem ever. Why wouldn't you order it to, if it's on guard duty?

All the scenarios you're presenting don't sound like cautionary tales to me, they sound like fights which would be made much more dramatic and interesting with readied actions. The key is that there shouldn't be a hard and fast rule which you follow rigidly. There should simply be the option to allow interesting actions, like a readied attack. Sometimes it will be the party doing it, sometimes the monsters. In all cases, fun.

And just to quickly address your concern about chaotic simultaneity when both sides ready... (actually , to address again, since I addressed this earlier already)... I'd have just the fast attacks trigger automatically. Any readied action which involved moving ("I charge through the door as soon as it's opened"), I retain the right to say "the other side was ready for you, too. Archers can fire, but anybody moving has to roll intiative to see who gets there first." Do you have to treat each case differently? Sure. Is it hard to do that? Not at all.