D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[Ruin Explorer]

Redoing old legacy products is attempting to do exactly that.

No-one has suggested that except people arguing against the idea. I didn't suggest it. Nor did @Dungeonosophy as far as I know (maybe I missed something).

So that's not the argument.

 

[Zardnaar]

No-one has suggested that except people arguing against the idea. I didn't suggest it. Nor did @Dungeonosophy as far as I know (maybe I missed something).

So that's not the argument.

They suggested they should bring in a team and redo the product removing problematic parts if it and the original post more or less said they needed to do it across multiple products.

 

[Zardnaar]

Apparently Wizards/Hasbro does view itself as an educational institution. On the GAZ10: Orcs of Thar product page, Wizards/Hasbro states:

"Dungeons & Dragons teaches that diversity is a strength, and we strive to make our D&D products as welcoming and inclusive as possible."

D&D is apparently here to teach us.

My university had all sorts if things there that's offensive. Mein Kampf, Greek and Roman classics, various religious literature.

See where I'm going with this?

 

[Dungeonosophy]

You did:



To find each such legacy product, they have to comb through every legacy product to find all those instances.

Hi Mirtek, I suggested that Wizards tap a small team of professional/expert cultural consultants to comb through (=read through) GAZ10, and write a report of their findings of "ethnic, racial, and gender prejudice", and present those findings as an amendatory article on DRAGON+. And then to continue this process with other legacy titles. Wizards already has a network of such cultural consultants.

I've never said anything about "redoing" (=rewriting) the product. Zardnaar falsely "recapped" the amends process which I presented, and then called this strawman (which he himself invented) "cultural vandalism." See his words:

(Post #222):

"Dear WotC please hire a team to comb though every product ever and redo it".

Not sure if you're aware of how much work that [redoing/rewriting] actually entails.

They produce what 5 books a year? At its height TSR was cranking out 60 iirc.

Movie studios with vastly more amounts of money don't do that [=redo/re-write a work] and it's cultural vandalism as well."

***
And after I specifically called on Zardnaar to stop misrpresentating what I presented, he continued on, in three later posts:

(Post #278):
"Redoing old legacy products is attempting to do exactly that.

There's a lot of cringey products from the 80's. It's not really viable to redo them."

***
(Post #279):

"They're not gonna spend much time and effort redoing old obscure material from the 80's that probably doesn't sell that well anyway. [...]

People aren't going to redo it because it's a reflection of when it was created."

***
(Post #282):

"They [=Dungeonosophy] suggested they should bring in a team and redo the product removing problematic parts[.]"

***
That's a lie.

I repeat: Zardnaar, please stop falsely stating that I've suggested that GAZ10 or any legacy product be "redone / rewritten" or that I've ever suggested that legacy products be "expurgated."

 

[J.Quondam]

They suggested they should bring in a team and redo the product removing problematic parts if it and the original post more or less said they needed to do it across multiple products.

No, he didn't, not once in this whole thread. He's talking about examining old products and addressing problematic issues with the affected peoples; not "redoing" any old products.

edit: Ah, I see Dugeonosophy has replied on his own behalf.

 

[Zardnaar]

Hi Mirtek, I suggested that Wizards tap a small team of professional/expert cultural consultants to comb through (=read through) GAZ10, and write a report of their findings of "ethnic, racial, and gender prejudice", and present those findings as an amendatory article on DRAGON+. And then to continue this process with other legacy titles. Wizards already has a network of such cultural consultants.

I've never said anything about "redoing" (=rewriting) the product. Zardnaar falsely "recapped" the amends process which I presented, and then called this strawman (which he himself invented) "cultural vandalism." See his words:

"Dear WotC please hire a team to comb though every product ever and redo it".

Not sure if you're aware of how much work that [redoing/rewriting] actually entails.

They produce what 5 books a year? At its height TSR was cranking out 60 iirc.

Movie studios with vastly more amounts of money don't do that [=redo/re-write a work] and it's cultural vandalism as well."

They're not gonna do that and as I said they want to use D+ to promote 5E.
Your idea isn't really reasonable.

It's also open ended Orcs of Thar today what's next?

WotC doesn't need to apologize either they didn't make it that company that did is dead the people who made it long gone and in some cases dead.

They did inherit it so they might stop selling it.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

They suggested they should bring in a team and redo the product removing problematic parts if it and the original post more or less said they needed to do it across multiple products.

Can you quote that? I cannot see that in any of @Dungeonosophy's posts.

I think when you go check you'll find you misread it, and are actually remembering one of the responses to his post, which said, not his post.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

My university had all sorts if things there that's offensive. Mein Kampf, Greek and Roman classics, various religious literature.

See where I'm going with this?

That you think your university owns the IP for Mein Kampf and is selling copies of it digitally on a website?! It's very hard to see where you're going with this lol.

 

[Zardnaar]

No, he didn't, not once in this whole thread. He's talking about examining and addressing issues, not "redoing" any old products.

edit: Ah, I see Dugeonosophy has replied on his own behalf!

Can you quote that? I cannot see that in any of @Dungeonosophy's posts.

I think when you go check you'll find you misread it, and are actually remembering one of the responses to his post, which said, not his post.

Point. I don't think their idea is reasonable though. Pragmatically it's not gonna happen and by that I mean WotC won't spend the money to do that and comb through legacy product they didn't create. And they won't use D+ for what they're suggesting.

 

[Zardnaar]

That you think your university owns the IP for Mein Kampf and is selling copies of it digitally on a website?! It's very hard to see where you're going with this lol.

No but it's an example of bad ideas still in print. Orcs of Thar isn't in print but you can get a pdf if it more or less in it's original form.

 

[BookTenTiger]

Point. I don't think their idea is reasonable though. Pragmatically it's not gonna happen and by that I mean WotC won't spend the money to do that and comb through legacy product they didn't create. And they won't use D+ for what they're suggesting.

I think you've made that very clear in this thread.

 

[Zardnaar]

I think you've made that very clear in this thread.

Do you think I'm wrong?

 

[J.Quondam]

Point. I don't think their idea is reasonable though. Pragmatically it's not gonna happen and by that I mean WotC won't spend the money to do that and comb through legacy product they didn't create. And they won't use D+ for what they're suggesting.

Personally, I think the idea is perfectly reasonable. I mean, entire countries have undergone reconciliation processes before.
But, yeah, I'll concede it might not be a realistic expectation, given how the modern corporate world and social media work.
I can't imagine that it hurts to try, though.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Personally, I think the idea is perfectly reasonable. I mean, entire countries have undergone reconciliation processes before.
But, yeah, I'll concede it might not be a realistic expectation, given how the modern corporate world and social media work.
I can't imagine that it hurts to try, though.

Yeah exactly.

Is it reasonable? Yes. Is it likely? No. These are different things.

 

[J.Quondam]

Yeah exactly.

Is it reasonable? Yes. Is it likely? No. These are different things.

I'd even go so far as to say it's not just reasonable, but the attempt is necessary. As Zard noted upthread, these things do fade into obscurity, in the broad social consciousness. But they still ought to be dealt with because they don't fade for the people affected.

Sometimes folks will say, "Why bother, it's just a game?"
To which the best response, imo, is, "Yes, it's just a game... so it shouldn't be that difficult to offer some meaningful redress."

 

[Dungeonosophy]

WotC wants to use Dragon+ to promote 5E. If you did that you would alienate people who like Dragon+ for that purpose (promoting 5E). [...] And they won't use D+ for what [Dungeonosophy is] suggesting.

DRAGON+ has lots of purposes, including teaching that "diversity is strength." It's not always about 5E crunch, but also about building goodwill toward the D&D brand as a whole.

DRAGON+ Issue #37 features amendatory statements on the drow:

"Everyone—aboveground and below—knows that all drow elves live in the Underdark and worship the Spider Queen.

"And everyone… is wrong.
[...]
"While these actions drove a wedge into the family tree of elvenkind, the drow that built Menzoberranzan are but a splinter group. The Forgotten Realms is about to learn a truth that has remained secret since Lolth’s initial betrayal.

“The spider-inspired ‘udadrow’ expression of the drow elves that D&D fans currently know is based on Lolth’s influence over a pocket of elves who became isolationist, cutting themselves off from the rest of drow culture,” explains Franchise Creative Director Jeremy Jarvis. “There are whole societies of drow that did not follow Lolth into the Underdark. Two such groups are the ‘aevendrow’ and the ‘lorendrow’, or the starlight elves and the greenshadow elves respectively.”
[...]
"As part of this worldbuilding we had to show that Drizzt was hardly unique as an udadrow who isn’t evil."

***
The article also features an interview with R.A. Salvatore where he touches on the amendatory new direction he's going with the drow.

 

[MGibster]

How much cultural trait can we mixup before leaving the depiction of a unique culture?

I don't think there's an answer to that. I think any fictional culture we create will likely act as a Rorschach test in that different people will see a different group reflected in it. Who do the Ferengi of Star Trek resemble most? In the first episode they appeared in, they were specifically compared to "Yankee traders" who were a somewhat unsavory group of merchants and drug smugglers from the New England area of the United States.

 

[Dungeonosophy]

At best they pull the material maybe an apology.

If it creates a big media poo storm (that doesn't go away/point to warning label) they'll just withdraw the product.

They did inherit it so they might stop selling it.

I'll say again: these are 'small words', because they snarkily play on the fears of "fandom" that our toys will be taken away. And thereby portrays me as "censor" and "spoiler." Though I have never advocated that GAZ10 simply be whisked away into the closet.

I've suggested that a large portion of the profits of the GAZ10 PDF go to appropriate charities.
I've suggested that the GAZ10 product page feature a link to a DRAGON+ article where Wizards cultural consultants honestly lay out the prejudiced facets of GAZ10.
And I've suggested that GAZ10 actually serve to "teach that diversity is strength" (like Wizards says), by serving as a template for making healing amends for "ethnic, racial, and gender prejudice" in other Wizards' legacy products.

That is different than just sweeping GAZ10 under the rug, which you repeatedly fearmonger about.

 

[Dungeonosophy]

Point. I don't think their idea is reasonable though. Pragmatically it's not gonna happen

So, your apology for repeatedly misportraying my amends proposal (in four posts!), even after I asked you to stop, is one word? "Point."
It sounds to me like you're saying:

"Point. I just made it up. Okay, ya got me. It's true you never said that Wizards should rewrite the products. But, I don't think any of your ideas for amendatory actions are reasonable, and I'm sure that none of them will ever happen, so it's okay that I just made stuff up to make your proposal sound bad."

and by that I mean WotC won't spend the money to do that and comb through legacy product they didn't create.

Wizards did create GAZ10. Wizards is the sole legal continuation of TSR, Inc.

 

[Dungeonosophy]

Do you think I'm wrong?

You are wrong to say it's "not possible." You're not in a position to say what is truly "possible" in regard to Wizards/Hasbro. And nothing new happens in this world unless someone voices it, and does it.

Back in 2015, I posted a proposal that Wizards open up the setting IP (Forgotten Realms, etc.) for fan commercial works. I even went to the trouble of cheekily posting an "imaginary news" site which purported to show new logos for the fan commercial content program. (I didn't hold onto the ruse beyond the original post; it was only an evocative image to get people thinking.)

I was nearly universally mocked by the ENWorld community: "You're wishing for a pony!" "It will NEVER happen!" "It's impossible: Wizards will never open up their setting IP! And here's a big list of reasons why it's impossible!"

And the thread was shut down.

And soon after that, DMs Guild began.

It's not like any ENWorlder came back and apologized to me, or said: "Ya know, you were right after all."

I'm not saying the proximity of the two events was anything more than coincidence. What I am saying is that I quickly tire of persons whose sole contribution is to say "it'll never happen", "it's impossible."