D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[Dungeonosophy]

The fact that the study of indigenous cultures is still called that in the US is in itself a problem.

Hi, though I shared some Indigenous voices who prefer the term "American Indian", I don't mean to say that "Native American" is passé. Obviously the term has a wide currency presently. In fact, the American Indian Studies program I participated in at Montana State University back in the 2000s has since been renamed Native American Studies. Apologies if the examples I gave came across as polemic.

The problem that some Indigenous folks have with the term "Native American" is that it sounds "unquestionably" like the hundreds of various indigenous nationalities are, and should be, just one generic flavor of the American civic national identity. Just another "hyphenated American," blended into the U.S. nation-state. A similar parallel would be to call Scots "North Britons" and Welsh "West Britons" (or to lump them together as "Minority Britons" or "Peripheral Britons"); or to call Kurds "Eastern Turks", or Tibetans "Southwestern Chinese," or Maori "Native New Zealanders." The term "Native American" has a "generic", "engineered" feel which Russell Means alludes to.

Whereas "American Indian" has a poignant ring of a "continent-spanning race." The term "American Indian" is still used by the National Congress of American Indians (the official representative body of the 632 Indian Nations within the U.S.), and also by the radical American Indian Movement (A.I.M.). The term "Indian Country" is in wide use, and is included in the title of one of the main indigenous newspapers Indian Country Today. And, though not widely known by the American populace, the term "Indian Nations" is officially the self-designated equivalent to the Canadian term "First Nations." When the (U.S.) National Congress of American Indians and the (Canadian) Assembly of First Nations made a joint "Declaration of Kinship" in 1999, these 1,265 nations referred to themselves collectively as "the Indigenous Peoples and Nations of North America."

Still, I'm not here to argue whether Native American or American Indian is the only "right" term. Because they both have their place, with some indigenous individuals preferring one or the other. "Indigenous American" or "Indigenous North American" or "First Peoples" are other options which I sometimes tap. And, like others have mentioned, the ideal is to refer to the specific nation.

 

[Dungeonosophy]

Well people on these forums loved Therod but I wouldn't be surprised if a few Greeks hated it.

Hi Zardnaar; it's easy to speculate that "a few Greeks hated" Theros. Yet because your speculation seems to counter what I shared, it would be more helpful if you gave concrete evidence for that.

 

[Helldritch]

Two things can be true at once.

It's perhaps possible that The Orcs of Thar was to some extent a response to Warhammer. Personally I think you're incorrect, because the timing doesn't work. The first Warhammer book which really separated out Orcs into strongly-themed tribes was a 40K book (actually, technically, a looseleaf that you had to put in a binder - I know because I had it). Thing is - that came out in 1989, alongside the plastic Ork boxed set (which was super-cool). WHFB mentioned tribes but didn't strongly characterize them in the way you're describing. "Red Wunz Go Fasta" originates with the looseleaf "book" I'm describing from 1989.

So I don't see how a 1988 product could be a reaction to a 1989 product.

Even if it was, if there was a product I missed (I don't think so but who knows), there's still a huge problem, because the "explanation" doesn't make it any less bad. If the writers react to the Evil Sunz or the Goffs with "Red Orcs" and "Yellow Orcs", dude, they're still absolutely doing something terrible, even if you think it's funny. Because they chose to use massive racism to "joke" about another product.

I get that as a kid the racism of this product slipped by you, and I don't blame you for that. But there's no "explanation" that doesn't make the people who made these product incredibly ignorant nor that makes it not hurtful and inappropriate.

I was 18 in 1988.
But the orks of WH 40k were also in WH and with similar ideas and projection. They were mainly a take on the punk movement of the 70s and 80s. Just the picture of an orc with a boom box rings a stone bell about what they were laughing at. Back in the 80s, when the orcs of Thar got out, we were all laughing about the jokes on the punk movement in that book. And that includes the Montagnais playing with me (an Innu nation in area) because we were more on heavy metal and hard rock.

As I said, some references to 1st nations might have been intentional or not. But the take on WH and the punk movement were quite clear to us, gamers of my area. For an outsider to the gamer community, the take on the 1st nation is definitely evident, especially if you ignore the context of the book and when it was made.

Back them we all saw the book as a joke more than an insult. Was it self deception? I do not know, bit we certainly did not saw it the way we do today.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

As I said, some references to 1st nations might have been intentional or not.

@Dungeonosophy has given extreme detail on his research here. There is absolutely no possibility those references were not intentional. You don't "accidentally" call a nation "Red Orcs" then "accidentally" model them on Native Americans, then "accidentally" name their leader after a famous Native American leader. That's like robbing a bank then saying you accidentally found a gun in your hand, accidentally blurted out "give me all your money now!!!", accidentally waited whilst the money was put into bags and accidentally picked up those bags and fled the scene lol.

Back them we all saw the book as a joke more than an insult. Was it self deception? I do not know, bit we certainly did not saw it the way we do today.

I get that you didn't see it that way back then, and I don't criticise you for it. But my point is, for a lot of other people, it even in 1988, it would have been extremely obvious. You guys were teenagers just responding to something, but the people writing it were adults, working together to create something which is unquestionably trading in multiple layers and types of racist sentiment.

 

[Voadam]

Another cool picture from the book.

 

[Helldritch]

Never said that they did not picked on 1st nationeers for inspiration, but that they did not limited themselves to only that. The only way to be sure would be to ask the writers what were their intentions.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

3) In the specific example you give, the Spanish conquistadors are portrayed as vampires. The general consensus nowadays is that, overall, the conquistadors were greedy, bloodthirsty, and destructive. And so their portayal as vampires is fitting, meaningful, and poignant.

The famous pirate Redbeard wan't English, but Otoman, with Greek blood. Why Otomans corsairs (who attacked villages in the coasts to catch slaves) can't be the bad guys in a XXI century movie? Is not that a double standar?

Who says Spanish conquerors were the bad guys? The sources are the enemies and rivals against the Spanish empire for that age. All those tropes from the anti-Spanish black legend are based in propaganda war (it is like saying to live in Seul is a hell, a postapocalypitc nightmare, because North-Korean mass-media tell that), and someday those tropes will be rejected like the old Hollywood far-west movies where the "redskins", indians or Northeamerican natives are showed as savages and monsters. If today Wotc apologies for Oriental Adventures in the future they will had to do the same for the vampires "conquistadores" from Ixalan setting.

Did you know how many universities were built in Hispanoamerica when USA got the independence? Maybe we shoud to talk about the lots of debts Simon Bolivar and company had to pay for the British help. In lots of USA zones Spanish language was talked before than English, and some names are by Spanish: Florida, Nevada, Montana, las Vegas, San Francisco, los Ángeles, Colorado, Adalucia(a city in Alabama), new Mardid (Missouri), Sacramento and California(whose name is from a fictional island from a Spanish novel). Spain is also a part of USA, and if some Northamericans attack Spain, they are attacking their own roots, their own past.

 

[el-remmen]

Even if it were somehow a complete unintentional accident, it would change nothing about the harm this kind of stereotypical and insulting representation propagates. But also, even if the creators had no intention to insult with what they included to be funny, they still intentionally included stuff that does.

Also, it is important to remember that whenever you say, "Well people of the time didn't see it as a problem" you are implicitly ignoring the very people targeted by those ideas, who certainly knew it to be a problem.

 

[Silvercat Moonpaw]

...and reimagine it as “Fallout with orcs”.

Want!

 

[Voadam]

Just the picture of an orc with a boom box rings a stone bell about what they were laughing at.

Sure that one picture with the boomboxes could have been directed at the punk movement, it has two with piercings and leather vests and mohawk style hair styles. It could have built off of WH40K riffs (which I was not as into but I thought was riffing on soccer hooligans).

But that is one picture in the explicitly Central-American themed section on Oenkmar, I don't remember any textual references to punk style stuff (but it has been decades and I have not read it cover to cover) for orcs in general.

So that picture can be taken as depicting Orcs as punks and/or urban hip hop Blacks. It is art subject to different interpretations and as an audience you do not necessarily know the artist's intent.

However the huge amount of text about Red Orc tribes and braves that is American Indian themed and the Yellow Orc Asian theming is pretty dominant and up front and pervasive.

I do not find it persuasive that the Indian and Asian theming was not intentional based on the one punk picture.

I think they were going for a Looney Tunes type parody cultural humor theming.