D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
I used to be on the fence about the Washington name until I saw a television commercial of all things. It showed various scenes of Native Americans going about their daily lives with the narrator saying, "We go by many names. Lakota, Pima, Navajo, and Utes." Then the scene switched to children on a playground and the narrator asked, "Would you call them red****?" And I thought to myself, "Hell, no." (I'm pretty sure I have the specific nations mentioned in the ad wrong. It's been a while. On the other hand, maybe the ad ended with "What would you call them?" It seems less likely that they would have used the word themselves.)

I used to think maybe the name wasn't offensive at the time it was given. However, I ran across another football team in the 20s/30s with an Indian motif named the Savages. Which kind of disabused my notion that they wouldn't deliberately name a football team after something they believed was offensive.
Also, like… Whatever word you use, it’s pretty dehumanizing to use a real group of people as a mascot. Would “the Washington First Nations People” or “the Washington Nacotchtank (Anacostan)” be better? I guess not being a slur makes it technically an improvement, but still seems pretty inappropriate.
 

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Zardnaar

Legend
Yes, but this turns into a sticky wicket, since "Native American" is an umbrella term representing hundreds of tribes, with many different languages and cultures, whose subjugation happened in different ways, by different European groups, at different time periods. Add to the mix that they didn't all get along with each other, and it gets pretty complicated. I think Zardinar (?) mentioned that the Crow and Sioux were enemies back in the 1870s and that the Sioux army had invaded their land. That's true--the Crow were allied with the US Cavalry (they served as scouts), and the Little Bighorn Battlefield is currently on their Reservation in Montana--that's where the Sioux set a trap for Custer, and wiped him out.

This doesn't diminish the tragedy experienced by Native Americans, or make mocking them right at all. But IMHO, the basic oppressor-oppressed narrative isn't always adequate to explain the complexities of history, once you start taking a deep dive into it.

I didn't go there that's not on me.

I treat old material RPG or otherwise in the context of the time it was written. Doesn't mean I believe in it or think it's right.

Mostly because it helps make sense as to why it was created.

This is mostly because I read a lot of history. Why stuff happened to me is just as important as to what happened (good or bad).

Lots of 80'saterisl is problematic but it's not like you can destroy it (or should?).

And you shouldn't cherry pick things either eg Dances With Wolves to represent what things were actually like if you didn't live through those times.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
To add to your post about how people wouldn't have made much of a ruckus about this back then, I think there's some more context to it.

This product came out at a time when people didn't protest this stuff publicly much. A lot of US Boomers had turned 30, had a mortgage and kids, and stopped being hippie protesters and had turned conservative. Boomers of the time, liberal and conservative, still strongly disapproved of racism, and would oppose hate crimes, but on a personal level. They would not go out and "make a statement" or protest, unless something really egregious happened.

It was a different time because they didn't have communications technology: there was no social media. If you read "Orcs of Thar" in a bookstore and found it offensive, you might tell a friend in person, refuse to buy it for your kid (the most likely result) or write TSR directly, but there was no internet to reach a wider audience. There was no twitter to use as a personal megaphone to raise awareness, almost no email, and no quick way to organize groups of like minded people. You needed to contact a dedicated protest group by landline or snail mail to organize something. It's easy for us now, but back then, you needed lots of money and energy to organize a boycott.

That's a major reason people in the 80s didn't protest this--most had no clue it existed and unless you really cared about it, it wasn't worth the sacrifices to money and family you'd have to make.
Definitely.

Mystara was never even on my radar. I didn’t grab it, and neither did anyone I gamed with. So a lot of the stuff it did wrong is entirely new to me.
 

cowpie

Adventurer
I didn't go there that's not on me.

I treat old material RPG or otherwise in the context of the time it was written. Doesn't mean I believe in it or think it's right.

Mostly because it helps make sense as to why it was created.

This is mostly because I read a lot of history. Why stuff happened to me is just as important as to what happened (good or bad).

Lots of 80'saterisl is problematic but it's not like you can destroy it (or should?).
Whoops, sorry!

I also believe that it's important to look objectively at things from history (including stuff that's no longer considered socially acceptable), because that's how you learn about history.

I'm opposed to destroying things that I find offensive -- I find that too often people who do this are doing it because they either a) have problems and have a penchant for violence, or b) think destroying bad things will magically make evil go away. Making bad words/ideas/things go away doesn't make them go away, it just makes it impossible to think about them. That leaves people unprepared to fight them when they happen again in the future.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Some of these terms fall in and out of fashion. The most visible radical indigenous protest movement of the 70s was "AIM" -- the American Indian Movement, and that was founded by indigenous people, so they picked the name. In 10 years, the preferred name will probably evolve into something new.
Or not. See the NAACP.
 


MGibster

Legend
Also, like… Whatever word you use, it’s pretty dehumanizing to use a real group of people as a mascot. Would “the Washington First Nations People” or “the Washington Nacotchtank (Anacostan)” be better? I guess not being a slur makes it technically an improvement, but still seems pretty inappropriate.

You mean like the Vikings, the Cowboys, or the 49ers? Okay, let's find a better example. Florida State are known as the Seminoles and a guy dressed as Chief Osceola rides an appaloosa named Renegade onto the field during every home game. But Florida State went to the Seminoles in the 1970s and got the blessing of the tribal council to use that name
as well as their assistance with selecting what their school symbol, Chief Osceola, wears and how he's depicted. Now it's true that they refer to Chief Osceola as a symbol and not a mascot, but, well, for all intents and purposes he's essentially a mascot.

Washington missed a golden opportunity to build up a lot of goodwill when they dug in their heels and refused to change their name. They should have issued a statement that they understood the contentious nature of their name, but that they would like to work with Native American groups on coming up with a name and symbol (or mascot) that everyone could be proud of.
 

cowpie

Adventurer
You mean like the Vikings, the Cowboys, or the 49ers? Okay, let's find a better example. Florida State are known as the Seminoles and a guy dressed as Chief Osceola rides an appaloosa named Renegade onto the field during every home game. But Florida State went to the Seminoles in the 1970s and got the blessing of the tribal council to use that name
as well as their assistance with selecting what their school symbol, Chief Osceola, wears and how he's depicted. Now it's true that they refer to Chief Osceola as a symbol and not a mascot, but, well, for all intents and purposes he's essentially a mascot.

Washington missed a golden opportunity to build up a lot of goodwill when they dug in their heels and refused to change their name. They should have issued a statement that they understood the contentious nature of their name, but that they would like to work with Native American groups on coming up with a name and symbol (or mascot) that everyone could be proud of.
Yeah, they should have contacted some Native American tribal groups, apologized, and asked them to vote on a new name for the team. Of course, then you'd have to pick and choose which groups to contact, so that could end up backfiring, but yeah--that was the most embarrassing name in football.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
There’s a difference between editing offensive terminology from old documents and educating people about those terms so that people don’t use them going forward.

A decade or so ago, a publishing company made the decision to edit the offensive terms out of Mark Twain. We (re)bought new copies to ensure we still had access to the original works.
 

cowpie

Adventurer
There’s a difference between editing offensive terminology from old documents and educating people about those terms so that people don’t use them going forward.

A decade or so ago, a publishing company made the decision to edit the offensive terms out of Mark Twain. We (re)bought new copies to ensure we still had access to the original works.
Agreed -- editing the terms can be used to insert new messaging, change the meaning of works, or rewrite history--and in the worst case, attempt to control what people can say or think. That's not about educating people anymore--it's about control.
 

The fact that the study of indigenous cultures is still called that in the US is in itself a problem.

“I hate the word ‘Native American.’ It’s a government term, which was created
in the year 1970 in the Department of the Interior, a generic term that describes
all the prisoners of the United States of America. Those of us who are forced to
live on trust territories, the Micronesians, the original Hawaiians, the Aleuts, the
Inupiats, the Yupiks, who are erroneously called Eskimos, and all of the 500
nations of the American Indians are so-called ‘Native Americans.’ I refuse to be
defined by a government, any government; so I am an Indian. Because I know
where that came from, a bastardization of two Spanish words: In Dios, ‘in with
god.’ And Columbus wrote la gente indio, ‘a people in with God;’ so I much prefer
to be called Indian rather than Native American.”


—Russell Means, Lakota Nation, “The Existential Indian

“I even hesitate to use the term "Native American," since it implies that we are Native citizens
of a colonialist power that conquered and divided the original nations in this continent (none
of whom were "American").”


—Marge Bruchac, Abenaki Nation

"Native American [...] is a term used by guilt-ridden white people."

—Sherman Alexi, Spokane and Coeur d'Alene Indian
 

Zardnaar

Legend
There’s a difference between editing offensive terminology from old documents and educating people about those terms so that people don’t use them going forward.

A decade or so ago, a publishing company made the decision to edit the offensive terms out of Mark Twain. We (re)bought new copies to ensure we still had access to the original works.

Stuff like that should probably be left as is or have multiple editions.

I read the classics at uni Herodotus, Tacitus (well some of them) and what the Greeks and Romans got up to was interesting.

I wouldn't want someone to deliberately rewrite or censure them. You can improve things going forward censuring the past is not ideal.
 

Smackpixi

Adventurer
This is a problematic product by people that could have known better. They just didn’t care to. There are examples of use/appropriation of other cultures that aren’t mocking, attempt to understand, romaticize or otherwise do something that evidences they gave a fark about the source they were using dating back to not just 1988, or 1984, or the dawn of the 20th century but to the very first encounter their civilization had with that culture.

When someone sees the peoples of a group as people and then represents them in their fiction, directly, or as inspiration, for good guys or bad, you can tell. And when they see those people as others who are not people, you can also tell. This is an example of the latter.
 

cowpie

Adventurer
“I hate the word ‘Native American.’ It’s a government term, which was created
in the year 1970 in the Department of the Interior, a generic term that describes
all the prisoners of the United States of America. Those of us who are forced to
live on trust territories, the Micronesians, the original Hawaiians, the Aleuts, the
Inupiats, the Yupiks, who are erroneously called Eskimos, and all of the 500
nations of the American Indians are so-called ‘Native Americans.’ I refuse to be
defined by a government, any government; so I am an Indian. Because I know
where that came from, a bastardization of two Spanish words: In Dios, ‘in with
god.’ And Columbus wrote la gente indio, ‘a people in with God;’ so I much prefer
to be called Indian rather than Native American.”


—Russell Means, Lakota Nation, “The Existential Indian

“I even hesitate to use the term "Native American," since it implies that we are Native citizens
of a colonialist power that conquered and divided the original nations in this continent (none
of whom were "American").”


—Marge Bruchac, Abenaki Nation

"Native American [...] is a term used by guilt-ridden white people."

—Sherman Alexi, Spokane and Coeur d'Alene Indian
I'm going to update the Sherman Alexie (only cause I read this book):

“I used to think the world was broken down by tribes,' I said. 'By Black and White. By Indian and White. But I know this isn't true. The world is only broken into two tribes: the people who are *ssholes and the people who are not.”
― Sherman Alexie, The Absolutely True Diary of a Part-Time Indian
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
“I hate the word ‘Native American.’ It’s a government term, which was created
in the year 1970 in the Department of the Interior, a generic term that describes
all the prisoners of the United States of America. Those of us who are forced to
live on trust territories, the Micronesians, the original Hawaiians, the Aleuts, the
Inupiats, the Yupiks, who are erroneously called Eskimos, and all of the 500
nations of the American Indians are so-called ‘Native Americans.’ I refuse to be
defined by a government, any government; so I am an Indian. Because I know
where that came from, a bastardization of two Spanish words: In Dios, ‘in with
god.’ And Columbus wrote la gente indio, ‘a people in with God;’ so I much prefer
to be called Indian rather than Native American.”


—Russell Means, Lakota Nation, “The Existential Indian

“I even hesitate to use the term "Native American," since it implies that we are Native citizens
of a colonialist power that conquered and divided the original nations in this continent (none
of whom were "American").”


—Marge Bruchac, Abenaki Nation

"Native American [...] is a term used by guilt-ridden white people."

—Sherman Alexi, Spokane and Coeur d'Alene Indian
Similarly, my Mom will bitch you right out if you call her ”African American”.
 

The kobolds, for example, are a parody of Italian culture. The possibility of you writing a post deriding any of that is exactly zero.

In the thread at the Mystara Piazza, which I linked to in the OP, I did mention that the Machievellian portrayal of Caurenze in GAZ3 (the Glantri Gazetteer) could be along the lines of something which the Sons of Italy might take offense. There are differences though.

1) The "red orcs" are a parody of traditional Indigenous American culture; which is still a living ideal and archetype in present-day Indigenous culture. In contrast, Caurenze is a parody of late medieval Italy of several hundred years ago.

2) The term "red orcs" is very close to a real-world racial slur. In contrast, the kobolds in GAZ10 are not referred to using a real-world ethnic slur for Italians.

3) The Indigenous American nationalities are still emerging from centuries of real racial, cultural, economic, and political oppression in a way that the Italian nationality is not, which has a full-blown nation-state on the map of the world.

4) The Italian cultural elements in the portrayal of the kobolds are relatively slender and few. They are quantifiably less than the American Indian motifs in the "red orcs" passages. For example, in the "Naming Your Character" section, whereas the "red orcs" explicitly feature American Indian-style names, and the "yellow orcs" explicitly feature East Asian names, the kobolds (along with three other humanoid tribes) are grouped under generic "Common Humanoid Names: These are the most gutteral and common names used among the humanoid tribes. Anything that sounds crude will do." They're not given Italian names. The only reference to Italy that I see is that is the title of Kol: "High Doge Kol." "Doge" was the title of head of state within Italian city-states during the medieval and renaissance periods. Doge - Wikipedia

However, Kol's birth name is "Constantine Diocletius" which is an ancient Byzantine-Roman name, not Italian language. Citizens of Kol are said to "love mimicking the Empire of Thyatis, although they do not really understand the difference between a republic and an imperial autocracy." In various sources, Thyatis is explicitly said to be based on ancient Rome and medieval Byzantium. Though I don't deny the cultural connections between ancient Rome and present-day Italians, fictional portrayals of Rome are simply not as delicate a matter as the portrayal of Indigenous American cultures. Again, GAZ10 contains no no ethic slurs for Romans or Greeks or Italians, whereas it does contain "red orc" which based on a real-world racial slur.

Just to be thorough, there are also Roman motifs within Orcus Rex, Turkish and Arab motifs within South Gnollistan, Norse (and U.S. New Yorker!) motifs within Trollhatten, South Asian motifs within Ogremoor, and Nahuatl/Mēxihcah motifs within Oenkmar. The gist of my post is not that all adaptations of real-world-based cultural motifs into a D&D / fantasy context are inherently offensive, but rather, the "yellow orcs" and "red orcs" are especially so, given their similarity to real-world racial slurs. And the pseudo-Indigenous American portrayal is also especially sensitive due to the ongoing cultural subordination of the Indigenous American nations and peoples. I did not delve into the Mesoamerican motifs of Oenkmar, as it appears to be less buffoonish than the portrayal of "Red Orcland", and also because I am less familiar with the indigenous cultures of Mexico.

The OP makes reference to the "sacred" land at the Battle of the Little Big Horn. For those who are unaware, the land the battle was fought on was Crow land. The Sioux, Arapahoe, and Cheyenne who fought the battle had, for lack of a better word, invaded Crown land and the Crow supported the US in expelling the invaders.

It's true that the battle site is within Apsáalooke Issawua, the Traditional Territory of the Apsáalooke (Crow) Nation. Nevertheless, the site is significant (sacred) for all the nations involved. It's not a joke.
 
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Zardnaar

Legend
In the thread at the Mystara Piazza, which I linked to in the OP, I did mention that the Machievellian portrayal of Caurenze in the GAZ3 (the Glantri Gazetteer) could be along the lines of something which the Sons of Italy might take offense. There are differences though.

1) The "red orcs" are a parody of traditional Indigenous American culture; which is still a living ideal and archetype in present-day Indigenous culture. In contrast, Caurenze is a parody of late medieval Italy of several hundred years ago.

2) The term "red orcs" is very close to a real-world racial slur. In contrast, the kobolds in GAZ10 are not referred to using a real-world ethnic slur for Italians.

3) The Indigenous American nationalities are still emerging from centuries of real racial, cultural, economic, and political oppression in a way that the Italian nationality is not, which has a full-blown nation-state on the map of the world.

4) The Italian cultural elements in the portrayal of the kobolds are relatively slender and few. They are quantifiably less than the American Indian motifs in the "red orcs" passages. For example, in the "Naming Your Character" section, whereas the "red orcs" explicitly feature American Indian-style names, and the "yellow orcs" explicitly feature East Asian names, the kobolds (along with three other humanoid tribes) are grouped under generic "Common Humanoid Names: These are the most gutteral and common names used among the humanoid tribes. Anything that sounds crude will do." They're not given Italian names. The only reference to Italy that I see is that is the title of Kol: "High Doge Kol." "Doge" was the title of head of state within Italian city-states during the medieval and renaissance periods. Doge - Wikipedia

However, Kol's birth name is "Constantine Diocletius" which is an ancient Byzantine-Roman name, not Italian language. Citizens of Kol are said to "love mimicking the Empire of Thyatis, although they do not really understand the difference between a republic and an imperial autocracy." In various sources, Thyatis is explicitly said to be based on ancient Rome and medieval Byzantium. Though I don't deny the cultural connections between ancient Rome and present-day Italians, fictional portrayals of Rome are simply not as delicate a matter as the portrayal of Indigenous American cultures. Again, GAZ10 contains no no ethic slurs for Romans or Greeks or Italians, whereas it does contain "red orc" which based on a real-world racial slur.

Just to be thorough, there are also Roman motifs within Orcus Rex, Turkish and Arab motifs within South Gnollistan, Norse motifs within Trollhatten, South Asian motifs within Ogremoor, and Nahuatl/Mēxihcah motifs within Oenkmar. The gist of my post is not that all adaptations of real-world-based cultural motifs into a D&D / fantasy context are inherently offensive, but rather, the "yellow orcs" and "red orcs" are especially so, given their similarity to real-world racial slurs. And the pseudo-Indigenous American portrayal is also especially sensitive due to the ongoing cultural subordination of the Indigenous American nations and peoples. I did not delve into the Mesoamerican motifs of Oenkmar, as it appears to be less buffoonish than the portrayal of "Red Orcland", and also because I am less familiar with the indigenous cultures of Mexico.



It's true that the battle site is within Apsáalooke Issawua, the Traditional Territory of the Apsáalooke (Crow) Nation. Nevertheless, the site is significant (sacred) for all the nations involved. It's not a joke.

There's a lot more than that in terms of ripped off cultures. If varying quality and scope.
 


cowpie

Adventurer
In the thread at the Mystara Piazza, which I linked to in the OP, I did mention that the Machievellian portrayal of Caurenze in GAZ3 (the Glantri Gazetteer) could be along the lines of something which the Sons of Italy might take offense. There are differences though.

1) The "red orcs" are a parody of traditional Indigenous American culture; which is still a living ideal and archetype in present-day Indigenous culture. In contrast, Caurenze is a parody of late medieval Italy of several hundred years ago.

2) The term "red orcs" is very close to a real-world racial slur. In contrast, the kobolds in GAZ10 are not referred to using a real-world ethnic slur for Italians.

3) The Indigenous American nationalities are still emerging from centuries of real racial, cultural, economic, and political oppression in a way that the Italian nationality is not, which has a full-blown nation-state on the map of the world.

4) The Italian cultural elements in the portrayal of the kobolds are relatively slender and few. They are quantifiably less than the American Indian motifs in the "red orcs" passages. For example, in the "Naming Your Character" section, whereas the "red orcs" explicitly feature American Indian-style names, and the "yellow orcs" explicitly feature East Asian names, the kobolds (along with three other humanoid tribes) are grouped under generic "Common Humanoid Names: These are the most gutteral and common names used among the humanoid tribes. Anything that sounds crude will do." They're not given Italian names. The only reference to Italy that I see is that is the title of Kol: "High Doge Kol." "Doge" was the title of head of state within Italian city-states during the medieval and renaissance periods. Doge - Wikipedia

However, Kol's birth name is "Constantine Diocletius" which is an ancient Byzantine-Roman name, not Italian language. Citizens of Kol are said to "love mimicking the Empire of Thyatis, although they do not really understand the difference between a republic and an imperial autocracy." In various sources, Thyatis is explicitly said to be based on ancient Rome and medieval Byzantium. Though I don't deny the cultural connections between ancient Rome and present-day Italians, fictional portrayals of Rome are simply not as delicate a matter as the portrayal of Indigenous American cultures. Again, GAZ10 contains no no ethic slurs for Romans or Greeks or Italians, whereas it does contain "red orc" which based on a real-world racial slur.

Just to be thorough, there are also Roman motifs within Orcus Rex, Turkish and Arab motifs within South Gnollistan, Norse motifs within Trollhatten, South Asian motifs within Ogremoor, and Nahuatl/Mēxihcah motifs within Oenkmar. The gist of my post is not that all adaptations of real-world-based cultural motifs into a D&D / fantasy context are inherently offensive, but rather, the "yellow orcs" and "red orcs" are especially so, given their similarity to real-world racial slurs. And the pseudo-Indigenous American portrayal is also especially sensitive due to the ongoing cultural subordination of the Indigenous American nations and peoples. I did not delve into the Mesoamerican motifs of Oenkmar, as it appears to be less buffoonish than the portrayal of "Red Orcland", and also because I am less familiar with the indigenous cultures of Mexico.



It's true that the battle site is within Apsáalooke Issawua, the Traditional Territory of the Apsáalooke (Crow) Nation. Nevertheless, the site is significant (sacred) for all the nations involved. It's not a joke.
Yes, but were any Kobolds offended that they were portrayed as Sons of Italy? That's what I'd like to know! :rolleyes:
 

Voadam

Legend
These are problematic facets in GAZ10: (Note: "PG" refers to the Players' Guide; "DMG" refers to the DM's Booklet.)

#1: Misappropriation of "gris-gris", from the Vodun culture of West Africa.

#2: The use of the term "yellow orc" and "Yellow Orkia" to refer to an East Asian (Mongolian/Chinese/Tibetan/Bhutanese)-inspired orcish culture.

#3: Misappropriation of the honored Lakota leader Tȟatȟáŋka Íyotake "Sitting Bull", in the form of "Big Chief Sitting Drool."

#4: The use of the term "red orc" and "Red Orcland" to refer to an American Indian-inspired orcish culture.


#5: A "notorious" misappropriation of the name of the Nakota (Assiniboine/Stoney) nation.


#6: Insensitive reference to the phrase: "The Only Good Indian Is a Dead Indian".
That is hardly a comprehensive list from GAZ10.

1639806340246.png

Nothing about Central American Oenkmarh?

1639806573107.png

Nothing possibly problematic here?
1639806802328.png
 

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