D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[cowpie]

You don't remember the 80's I do.

By the context of the time no one cared. There's worse in 80's pop culture eg movies.

Not saying it's right or wrong but you're injecting modern concepts backwards in time.

Doesn't work like that.

Personally I think the Mystara gaz series is a bit pants for multiple reasons thinly veiled reskins being one of them.

Here's your fantasy Mongol rip off, here's your fantasy Italian rip off etc.

Or context it's been 30+ years since that book came out. 30+ years before that book isn't that far removed from the events of WW2.

Certainly we can all rag on this obviously crappy product, which I'd argue was somewhat cringey even for the standards of the time (there would be people who'd certainly take issue with this then), but to add to your comment, is this still happening today in RPG products, 33 years later?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

You don't remember the 80's I do.

By the context of the time no one cared. There's worse in 80's pop culture eg movies.

Not saying it's right or wrong but you're injecting modern concepts backwards in time.

This is absolutely false.

Little Big Man was 1979. It's a problematic movie in it's own way but it very clearly illustrates how attitudes had changed, at least among people who cared to educate themselves. And someone deciding to base stuff on other cultures should be doing that. I mean, OA is criticised, but there's actual research and consultation with Japanese people and so on there. Whereas this is just heartless racist mockery. "Big Chief Sitting Drool"? I mean jesus bro, you're trying to tell me that was "A-okay" in 1988? Because no. I was 10 in 1988, and even in the UK I would have known that was wrong. I mean, I knew calling Native Americans "Indians" was wrong at that age.

Don't try to pretend that in the 1980s no-one knew or cared about this stuff.

As for "Well lots of the Gazetteers were basically giant racist piles of racial stereotypes featuring non-white races frequently being projected on to non-humans" (and not demihumans, whereas vice-versa didn't happen at all AFAICT - I'm open to counter-examples, and they may exist because Mystara had so much in it, but all the "white" races/cultures I can think off-hand seemed to projected on to humans or demihumans), that's not the sterling defence you think it is. That's actually an unintentional condemnation.

 

[Zardnaar]

This is absolutely false.

Little Big Man was 1979. It's a problematic movie in it's own way but it very clearly illustrates how attitudes had changed, at least among people who cared to educate themselves. And someone deciding to base stuff on other cultures should be doing that. I mean, OA is criticised, but there's actual research and consultation with Japanese people and so on there. Whereas this is just heartless racist mockery. "Big Chief Sitting Drool"? I mean jesus bro, you're trying to tell me that was "A-okay" in 1988? Because no. I was 10 in 1988, and even in the UK I would have known that was wrong. I mean, I knew calling Native Americans "Indians" was wrong at that age.

Don't try to pretend that in the 1980s no-one knew or cared about this stuff.

As for "Well lots of the Gazetteers were basically giant racist piles of racial stereotypes featuring non-white races frequently being projected on to non-humans" (and not demihumans, whereas vice-versa didn't happen at all AFAICT - I'm open to counter-examples, and they may exist because Mystara had so much in it, but all the "white" races/cultures I can think off-hand seemed to projected on to humans or demihumans), that's not the sterling defence you think it is. That's actually an unintentional condemnation.

Some people did care but it wasn't exactly mainstream is what I'm saying.

I can't really go into to much detail due to board rules. Things were different.

1984 United States presidential election - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Case in point but a picture paints a thousand words.

I like the BECMI adventures the setting not so much. The adventures have various issues as well but generally they're good/interesting.

 

[BookTenTiger]

Some people did care but it wasn't exactly mainstream is what I'm saying.

I can't really go into to much detail due to board rules. Things were different.

1984 United States presidential election - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Case in point but a picture paints a thousand words.

2-3 years before that book came out here it was illegal to be gay, legal to rape your wife and legal to strap or cane kids at school.

Are you really choosing to spend your time and energy arguing that "people in 1988 didn't care about Native Americans so it's okay that they published racist materials"?

It just seems like a really weird angle to argue.

 

[Ancalagon]

I worry that people are now so sensitive to making mistakes that they won't set games in other cultures or times, like the Chinese Silk Road, or an Islamic Golden Age themed setting, and ultimately I think that's a shame and not a good thing for cultral understanding or general intellectual curiosity.

See that's the thing:

If you do it, you are bound to get some things wrong. We all have biases we don't even realize we have. Some of those wrong things could be quite offensive.

If you don't do it, you don't do the research that increases your knowledge of other cultures, every game is fantasy generic Europe.

 

[cowpie]

I'm making the point that a lot of people in the 80s did care about racism, and that this is a crappy product.

Have times changed, or have they stayed the same?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Some people did care but it wasn't exactly mainstream is what I'm saying.

I don't agree that it wasn't mainstream. It just wasn't dominant. Those are different things. And 1988 was not 1984, culturally, especially with regards to racism.

Also I'm a bit confused, Reagan's primary platform was economic rather than social, and AFAICT race wasn't a huge part of that particular election (unlike some others). So I don't really see how that supports your point. Looking at the media of the US from 1980 to 1988 you can see a pretty clear decline in racism, and attempts to move away from racist stereotypes.

This is two years before Dances With Wolves for goodness sake. And you're trying to tell me people would have thought "Big Chief Sitting Drool" the "Red Orc" would have totally A-okay in 1988 even when it very clearly would not have in 1990? Because I'm not really buying that.

 

[Zardnaar]

Are you really choosing to spend your time and energy arguing that "people in 1988 didn't care about Native Americans so it's okay that they published racist materials"?

It just seems like a really weird angle to argue.

No I'm claiming things were different back then. There's lots of 80's stuff that has aged terribly but a book like that wouldn't have offended that many people back then. Even if it did they would get ignored.

Not right no but yeah there's plenty of stuff from back then in pop culture one can find.

 

[BookTenTiger]

See that's the thing:

If you do it, you are bound to get some things wrong. We all have biases we don't even realize we have. Some of those wrong things could be quite offensive.

If you don't do it, you don't do the research that increases your knowledge of other cultures, every game is fantasy generic Europe.

I think the key is to work with people who do have a connection to or expertise in the history and culture so it's not just from one author's perspective.

 

[BookTenTiger]

No I'm claiming things were different back then. There's lots of 80's stuff that has aged terribly but a book like that wouldn't have offended that many people back then. Even if it did they would get ignored.

Not right no but yeah there's plenty of stuff from back then in pop culture one can find.

Racism isn't about offense. It's about maintaining existing oppressive power structures. This RPG text maintains the power structure of the time because it portrays Native American cultures as monstrous and worth mocking.

That was wrong then, and it's wrong now.

Edit: also I want to say this thread started with and has some extensive research and expertise. To dismiss it all as "a product of its time" seems antithetical to the spirit of the discussion.