D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[MGibster]

Insulting to the individual in a ham fisted 80's satire way?

They're mocking Sitting Bull?

Taken out of the context of GAZ10, I don't see it as mocking Sitting Bull anymore than Mike Meyers' joke about Baberaham Lincoln was mocking Lincoln. But taken in context of GAZ10, I could see that someone could interpret it as mocking Sitting Bull. Like I said, I just found it to be one of the least offensive jokes in GAZ10.

 

[Helldritch]

I think this is the big question really. Sometimes stuff does just disappear. Like the early series of Doctor Who, for no reason other than the videotape was recycled. And consider the product under discussion here, which I haven't read, and don't want to read. It sounds like a really poor quality piece of work with no intrinsic value, irrespective of the issues. Is it worth going to any effort to save it for posterity?

On the other hand, one can't help but think of piles of burning books, which historically has not been a good thing.

Which is why I'm sitting firmly on the fence, despite the splinters up my backside.

I am sitting on the same fence. The OP did say he had talked with the author and that the author never meant harm. I still believe that reading a book, any book with the goal the OP had will always yield some results, more or less depending on the reader and the work itself.

In a literature course, I came with ten different point of view on a novel and all of them were logical and supported by the book the period it was written and all were contradicting each others to various degrees

The point is that if you want to see something in a book, you will find it. It is almost garantied especially if you do not try to read it with the era it was written. A book might be awfully wrong from a modern perspective, but be a paragon of virtues for the era and culture it was written.

Banning and burning books were never the answer. Heck... Mein Kampf is still sold and I hope we all agree it is the worst piece of racist sh** ever written.

 

[Zardnaar]

Taken out of the context of GAZ10, I don't see it as mocking Sitting Bull anymore than Mike Meyers' joke about Baberaham Lincoln was mocking Lincoln. But taken in context of GAZ10, I could see that someone could interpret it as mocking Sitting Bull. Like I said, I just found it to be one of the least offensive jokes in GAZ10.

Ah rgr. Went to check my computer but I forgot it's kinda pulled apart atm.

Not sure if I have the PDF or not.

 

[Zardnaar]

I am sitting on the same fence. The OP did say he had talked with the author and that the author never meant harm. I still believe that reading a book, any book with the goal the OP had will always yield some results, more or less depending on the reader and the work itself.

In a literature course, I came with ten different point of view on a novel and all of them were logical and supported by the book the period it was written and all were contradicting each others to various degrees

The point is that if you want to see something in a book, you will find it. It is almost garantied especially if you do not try to read it with the era it was written. A book might be awfully wrong from a modern perspective, but be a paragon of virtues for the era and culture it was written.

Banning and burning books were never the answer. Heck... Mein Kampf is still sold and I hope we all agree it is the worst piece of racist sh** ever written.

Not sure never got past chapter 1. Tried reading it a few times and used it as a source at uni.

 

[Aldarc]

Honoring the author.

None of this thread is against Bruce Heard as a person. I've conversed with him several times over the years, and he's a fine person.

I am able to empathize and work myself into the perspective of the time, while at the same time firmly holding the problematic facets up to the light of examination.

I'd offer a few contextual speculations. I may be mistaken about some or all of these; but these are points I consider when empathizing:

1) The author was raised in continental Europe, and English is not the author's native language—it's a learned language. And in certain European languages, the terms "red man" and "yellow man" may have lingered as "acceptable" terms longer than in the English language. (I'd appreciate if knowledgeable French speakers in the ENWorld community could affirm or dis-affirm that.)

2) The author is of the Baby Boomer generation who, probably even in Europe, were raised on American Western films. Films which were pervaded with the stereotypical "cowboys and Indians" trope.

3) After having met Gary Gygax during a business trip to France, the author was hired by TSR. Moving to Wisconsin, U.S.A. as an adult in the mid-1980s, the European-born author may have missed some cultural nuances. Such as the revisionist trend seen in the film Little Big Man (1970). And other cultural subtleties and implications.

4) In an earlier post, one ENWorlder referred to GAZ10 as "Garbage Pail Kids." Note: the Garbage Pail Kids came out in 1985, in the same era as GAZ10. Others have mentioned "Looney Toons." I feel both of those are spot on. GAZ10 has a "gross" Garbage Pail Kids vibe, plus a zany Looney Toons vibe...plus (unfortunately) Looney Toons' 1940s racial stereotypes. Even Garbage Pail Kids (probably) stayed away from racial stereotypes.

5) The author was "all about humor," with no other inspiration. He states in an interview: "There was no specific source of inspiration [for GAZ10] other than my decision to show the “monster’s” point of view with some humor." However, an unloosed continental European sense of humor may be somewhat different than the North American sense of humor.

6) The author was in a position which may not have provided the critical feedback which this product deserved. AFAIK, the author was, at that time, Product Manager for the entire Basic D&D line, which was equivalent to the entire AD&D product line. AD&D and BD&D were kept as distinct brands, product lines, and departments due to the fact that TSR tallied the Dave Arneson royalties differently in each of the two lines. So, since the author was also his own Product Manager, he may not have received necessary feedback from his team-members who were beneath him in the business hierarchy.

7) The book was rushed. See comments from the author: "Unfortunately, no time was left at all to try out RPG optional developments. I had to shoot from the hip for much of this."

These points do not excuse anything. I just want to try to paint a full picture, in appreciation for the author's humanity.

P.S. Here are the author's full comments on GAZ10, from an interview conducted by "Random Wizard" several years ago:

RW: In 1988, GAZ 10 The Orcs of Thar was released. This Gazetteer was unique in that it was presented from the humanoid monsters perspective. It provided rules for playing Orcs, Kobolds, Trolls, etc... Did you do much playtesting of the rules? The rules seem to encourage a fun and carefree style (and are quite imaginative). Were there any sources of inspiration for putting together this Gazetteer? Was there a reason you tackled this Gazetteer instead of handing it off to someone else?

BH: There was a lot of playtest for the boardgame insert. GAZ10 indeed had a lot of crunch to it. There was no specific source of inspiration other than my decision to show the “monster’s” point of view with some humor. It had been a while since I’d designed GAZ3, and the Known World’s real estate was going away fast! That was the motivation for fishing GAZ10 out of the mix and having some fun with it.

I think that it's also worth considering the sort of things that Bruce Heard might have read as a child in France (or across Europe), particularly Franco-Belgian comics like Tintin, Asterix & Obelix, or Lucky Luke.

Please enjoy this low-hanging fruit.

Tin Tin:

Spoiler

Asterix & Obelix:

Spoiler

Lucky Luke:

Spoiler

It's exceptionally easy to find these comics still in print across Europe.

 

[Zardnaar]

I think that it's also worth considering the sort of things that Bruce Heard might have read as a child in France (or across Europe), particularly Franco-Belgian comics like Tintin, Asterix & Obelix, or Lucky Luke.

Please enjoy this low-hanging fruit.

Tin Tin:

Spoiler

View attachment 148668

Asterix & Obelix:

Spoiler

View attachment 148664 View attachment 148666

View attachment 148665

Lucky Luke:

Spoiler

View attachment 148667

It's exceptionally easy to find these comics still in print across Europe.

Got to read them in the 80's. Never really got Tintin. Well never saw Lucky Luke the others made it here.

Local library had them in the children's section. Had several of them as a kid maybe my sister has them idk.

They're a reflection of post war France.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I think that it's also worth considering the sort of things that Bruce Heard might have read as a child in France (or across Europe), particularly Franco-Belgian comics like Tintin, Asterix & Obelix, or Lucky Luke.

Please enjoy this low-hanging fruit.

Tin Tin:


It's exceptionally easy to find these comics still in print across Europe.

Thing is though, they have been revised, and continue to be revised. But I think the difference here is that aside from the racist stereotypes, they are good. Comic strips of lower quality simply haven't been reprinted and have disappeared.

 

[The Glen]

Given the choice between adding a disclaimer to older products, or removing older products from the market entirely, I would choose the disclaimer every time.

And if the question is "should consumers have that choice?", my answer is an enthusiastic "yes."

Nothing makes people want something more than by telling them they can't have it.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Got to read them in the 80's. Never really got Tintin. Well never saw Lucky Luke the others made it here.

Local library had them in the children's section. Had several of them as a kid maybe my sister has them idk.

They're a reflection of post war France.

Tintin Au Congo was already widely regarded as racist and unacceptable in the UK even since the 1940s, and when other Tintins got translated over the decades, it did not. So that was so racist as to be unacceptable in the 1940s here, to be clear.

Finally in 1991 the B&W version did get translated as a sort of historical artifact with a fairly limited print run (and likewise with the 1946 colour version in 2005). I was like the world's biggest Tintin fan when I was a kid, and thanks to my mum liking the art style (she's an illustrator herself) I got all the Tintin books, including weird ones like the one about the Russian revolution (which I think never got inked and is thus B&W), and yes, Tintin Au Congo, which my mum took pains to explain to me was racist and unacceptable, but which we had to show how attitudes were messed-up in the past, and we needed to learn from. Even as a kid, even if it hadn't seemed racist (which it did - I was at school with Black kids and so the way they were drawn here was pretty insane to me), the cartoonishness of the portrayal of the Africans (and even the animals - I had the version with the rhino-dynamiting) was harshly at odds with the general Tintin vibe so I hated it.

(Also damn "Your country, Belgium" is indeed pretty special - that is really "a different era" stuff in the way 1988 was not - Wikipedia tells us that even the 1946 redrawn version Herge put out - the one I had - removed all that stuff. So that was unacceptable even for 1946! I'm surprised you were able to find that version in the 1980s.)

Tintin in the Congo - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There was also a lot of other less-extreme racism in the Tintin books, but weirdly a lot of it seemed to almost accidentally lampshade itself, like when Tintin is taking a photo of some poor Native American, the guy looks really put out, and it makes Tintin look like a tourist-y jerk. Even as a kid I remember thinking "Tintin, don't do that...".

(Also reminds me that there was an amazing Tintin-specific shop in Soho (or thereabouts) in London in the 1980s I remember going there on a dark/rainy night and just being amazed by it - it had white walls, bright lighting and a high ceiling, oh and minimalist decor as was common in the '80s, I remember that.)

The Asterix one is particularly messed-up because IIRC that's not from the '80s, that's way later, like the '90s or something, and should obviously never have happened. Asterix also has a weird problem where Roman slaves are disproportionately shown as Black, which was like, wildly historically inaccurate and kind of super-racist as a result (even beyond racist portrayals in terms of features and so on).

Lucky Luke wasn't as racist with its art (notice the leader of the Native Americans is about as handsome and well-proportioned as Luke himself, I guess as befits a "Noble Savage" ugh), but jesus the colonial attitudes in that panel are something else.

But I think the difference here is that aside from the racist stereotypes, they are good.

Tintin Au Congo was not good, but yeah, Tintin as a whole was, if sometimes a little fashy (as we would say now).

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Nothing makes people want something more than by telling them they can't have it.

Except that's not actually true.

It's one of those things people say, but, Tintin Au Congo not being available in English, for example, didn't create massive demand. It just meant serious Tintin collectors wanted it, but no more than they wanted other obscure Tintin stuff, which wasn't "banned", just "unavailable".

Stigma does matter, and why something isn't available can influence how much people want it. Hardcore collectors always want everything totally regardless of the reasons. They're a tiny bit of the market, though. Edgelords are the only people who specifically want things because they've been can't have them because they're racist or w/e (when we're talking media).

EDIT - Just to double-down on this, I should point out, Tintin In the land of the Soviets, which whilst pretty crap (it's basically a lengthy propaganda screed that even Herge was pretty disgusted with in later life and himself had avoided updating), was never actively rejected in the UK (unlike Tintin Au Congo, which the British Tintin publisher intentionally refused to publish - i.e. "banned"), got an English translation before Tintin Au Congo, sometime in the mid or late 1980s, because there was much more demand for that.