D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[Helldritch]

Show me a little village in Western or middle Europe that is more than 20 miles from another village. D&D villages are often really isolated, many days ride through untamed wilderness to the nearest other place of civilisation.

Use Google earth.
Also, 20 miles on foot is quite a lot. By car not that much hey?

And strange you did not take eastern Europe either... is it because it would mean that I was right?

We are not here to split hair in half. You understood the meaning of my post. There were a lot a small villages over the entire world and still are today. Western America was neither unique or outstanding in that regard.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

Use Google earth.
Also, 20 miles on foot is quite a lot. By car not that much hey?

And strange you did not take eastern Europe either... is it because it would mean that I was right?

We are not here to split hair in half. You understood the meaning of my post. There were a lot a small villages over the entire world and still are today. Western America was neither unique or outstanding in that regard.

There are very few. I excluded Eastern Europe or more specifically Ukraine, Belarus, Russia because everything is more spread out over there and I do not know enough about the region to comment. Where I live the average distance between villages is about 5 or 6 miles. I was struck very strongly visiting the New England region of the US at how far apart rural settlements were and how spread out those villages were.

 

[Helldritch]

There are very few. I excluded Eastern Europe or more specifically Ukraine, Belarus, Russia because everything is more spread out over there and I do not know enough about the region to comment. Where I live the average distance between villages is about 5 or 6 miles. I was struck very strongly visiting the New England region of the US at how far apart rural settlements were and how spread out those villages were.

The same is true in Africa, Asia, Australia. This is all over the world even today. Yes western and and central Europe is a bit cramped but not so much with eastern. Most of the population of China is located in the ... eastern part. In central China there is a big desert, Gobi, close to Mongolia. Yet, there are villages around it.

The main point is that though small isolated villages can be all over the world, western America struck out as a thing simply because the Americans made so many movies about it and American movies are all over the place... It is easy to only see what we have been shown so many times. But in medieval Europe there were a lot of these in many countries. It is easy to forget this fact.

We have so many stories to draw from... El-Dorado, the mines of Solomon, all were far from civilizations, yet, there was always a small village from where the hero(es) would start their journey. This is why western America is certainly not the main inspiration for D&D. It may, at best, inspired a few scenari, but certainly not the whole game.

 

[Vaalingrade]

But a setting with evil monsters, even if those evil monsters are drawing inspiration from real world history and literature, I just don't really see an issue with that.

I think there might be a thread on these boards that explains the issue.

 

[Maxperson]

Because in D&D there are no lawless frontier towns which need protection from bandits.

Sure there are, but this is true of frontier towns from many cultures across the world. It's not a link to western frontier towns.

There are no adventurers-for-hire riding in with their weapons proudly displayed.

Again, true of many cultures around the world.

There is no wilderness.

Really? The old west is all the wilderness the world has ever had?

The characters never have to create their own justice, because the local law officers take care of everything.

Not legally, and not something even remotely limited to western frontier towns.

Nobody ever rides off into the sunset.

I can't recall that ever happening in a game I played or module that I've read. If you simply mean leaving after you've fixed the local problem, it's again something that applies worldwide and not limited to western frontier towns.

And the sudden influx of gold being compared to the Alaskan gold rush was for illustrative purposes only, and not meant to parallel the Western Frontier at all.

This is correct. I quoted the passage that said where the gold comes from. It didn't come from adventurers going out and mining it, or NPCs for that matter.

Also Gygax never read any westerns, he never read Howard - who never wrote any westerns - and he wasn't a libertarian steeped in 1940s and 1950s nostalgia.

No clue. I don't know how much any particular thing influenced Gygax. And neither do you. I do know that he flat out said that the influx of money in D&D was due to successful adventurers, and did not say it was due to wild west like mining operations.

Go look in the mirror. The thing in the middle of your face is your nose.

Nothing you listed is exclusive to western frontier towns and the game itself is written to be roughly medieval European, not American wild west.

If you're going to claim lots of wild west influence, you need to be able to show proof of that, not vague suppositions that more easily apply to other cultures around the world.

 

[Maxperson]

Show me a little village in Western or middle Europe that is more than 20 miles from another village. D&D villages are often really isolated, many days ride through untamed wilderness to the nearest other place of civilisation.

So people from those villages rarely travelled more than a few miles from home. Mobility is a modern convenience. A village that was even 10 miles from another one was still a lonely village.

 

[Maxperson]

There are very few. I excluded Eastern Europe or more specifically Ukraine, Belarus, Russia because everything is more spread out over there and I do not know enough about the region to comment. Where I live the average distance between villages is about 5 or 6 miles. I was struck very strongly visiting the New England region of the US at how far apart rural settlements were and how spread out those villages were.

New England isn't in the western U.S., so again that's an example that is contrary to the idea that these villages are about the western frontier.

 

[Voranzovin]

It seems to me that the question of whether or not Dnd was inspired by westerns is irrelevant. The question is whether it reflects particularly American ideals of heroism, which also happen to be exemplified by westerns.

I'd say that it does. "The hero goes out into the untamed frontier and carves out their own empire by their own effort, needing no ones permission" might not be completely unique to America, but it's unusually central to American culture. A literal frontier isn't even necessary: consider the many stories of immigrants rising to power from nothing, including plenty of classic gangster films, and even recent examples like Hamilton. Dnd's leveling system has that idea baked in.

Comparisons to LOTR made in this thread seem apt. Yes, Sam jumps social classes, but only because Frodo leaves him Bag End. That was entirely up to Frodo. A lot of European rags-to-riches folktales end with the peasant becoming a king and living happily ever after, but often because the hero demonstrated his qualities to an existing king (probably meaning he gets to marry the princess). The hero can't just go out and make themselves a king by their own effort.

Westerns are just an obvious cultural manifestation of these ideas that's easy to point to. Dnd can exemplify them without any direct inspiration from westerns at all.

 

[Faolyn]

Also, the Mandalorian is not even remotely a space-western.

Since I've never seen the show, a question: I've seen a few images of the Mandalorian pushing Baby Yoda around in a pram and I was wondering if there was supposed to a homage to Lone Wolf and Cub?

 

[Faolyn]

I'm much more inclined to take Gygax at his word than an assumption that involves a class with abilities that 95% of don't match Cane.

It's possible to be inspired by multiple sources at once.