D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[Ashtagon]

So, you're saying that a fantasy rpg supplement from the 1980s is less racist than the ideology of people engaged in genocide four centuries ago. The effect of this is a an apology for something that is still racist, and is a part of an ongoing history of racism inaugurated all those centuries ago. Combined with how the piazza shuts down any conversation and analysis as to how it might be racist, it certainly seems like there are a bunch of fans who just want to stick their head in the sand and not having anyone complicate their relationship to their rpg toys.

I state that GAZ10 is less racist that 16th century Spanish colonists as a statement of fact. I'm not apologising for the author of GAZ10. If he feels it appropriate, that's for him to do. If you want to interpret that statement of fact as an apology on behalf of GAZ10, that's you putting words in my mouth, and I would thank you not to do that.

Really, it's no secret that lots of things in the past contains problematic content, both because humans generally suck, and because society is (slowly) improving. But saying something is bad without offering solutions doesn't really help anyone, and doesn't really provide any new information. It doesn't take a doctoral thesis to recognise that GAZ10 is bad; I bought it when it first came out and very nearly threw it away because I personally felt grossed out by some of the depictions.

I won't engage into a debate on moderation policy for the Piazza here on this site. That would be wildly inappropriate.

 

[Malmuria]

I've been reading this thread with some interest but I have to chime in as the OP has...forgotten a lot of details about the setting he's calling racist. Not once has he mentioned the Ethengar or Atruaghin, the Mystaran equivalents of the Mongolians and Native Americans, and the fact that orcs in Mystara assimilate the cultures of the people they fight against the most. There's another clan of orcs in the Broken Lands that emulate the Roman legions, but apparently copying the Romans is fine. The Ethengar book is considered one of the best gazetteers in the line, while the Atruaghin book was notoriously rushed.

By removing the context behind the races you remove what made those orcs unique to the setting. The Red orcs dress and act that way because they fought for centuries against the Horse Clan before they were separated by an act of divine magic. But the Red orcs still copy the culture of the people that fought them to a standstill. The yellow orcs still fight the Ethengar, and believe by using their tactics and copying their customs they will gain a measure of their opponent's power. The black orcs dress in vaguely Thyatian gear, march in formation, and try to fight like the Legions that they witnessed crush all before them years ago. Orcs copy cultures in Mystara. The beastmen races were created by a jealous Immortal to throw down the kingdoms of men and demi-humans, and she did this by reincarnating the souls of the evilest mortals into a new race who over the years evolved into the various humanoid races.

The Aztec styled humanoids are a bit more complicated because they worship Atzanteotl, the patron of corruption and betrayal. He came from a culture similar to the Aztecs, and tries to corrupt other races into his worship. Every race he corrupts he has take up the culture of his original people. The Oinkmarians are just one of the groups he's corrupted. The schattenalfen, the original Azcan of the Hollow World, and the Tiger Clan of the Atruaghin also fell under his sway, and all have adopted Aztec trappings. Aztanteotl then tells his different followers that they are his true worshipers and to kill anybody who claims that they are his true followers. Meaning all the groups hate each other. He's a bit of a jerk.

The Piazza has a standing rule if you don't like something then give an example of how to change the lore to make it positive. The setting is rife with continuity problems. Thorfinn has spent years getting the errors in cartography right. It's an incredibly welcoming and friendly board as long as people obey the rules. The first rule is if something is problematic, give a suggestion on how to fix it. People have dumped near doctoral theses on that page explaining the problem and their suggestion on the solution and gotten equality long diatribes in response. It's often funny, and quite entertaining. But they take the whole of the setting into consideration, without cherry-picking.

The interior logic of the setting is not the most relevant context here. What we are talking about is the context of a set of representations produced in the United States, a country built on stolen land, and how the representations in this particular supplement connect to other popular and racist representations of indigenous people.

 

[The Glen]

Then talk about the actual representation of those people with the Ethengar and the Atruaghin books rather than a fantasy race that exists to showcase the orc's attempt to copy the cultures that defeated them. The orc take on the human cultures they copy are flawed, and it's meant to be flawed. The orcs don't understand the reasoning and methodology of the human cultures, only that since the humans beat them they need to be more like the humans.

 

[CleverNickName]

I've been reading this thread with some interest but I have to chime in as the OP has...forgotten a lot of details about the setting he's calling racist.

I just want to point out that the original post did not "call" anything racist. @Dungeonosophy created a list of problematic elements, and referenced them to known issues and cited their sources. Opinions followed, but the original list wasn't an opinion piece. It's a summarized list of research.

 

[Faolyn]

Looked over some of that earlier thread and Wow. The fact that there are people who see GAZ10 as an "improvement" over previous representation is just . I should never be surprised at this point, but sometimes I still am.

Even if they're saying "there was no description of what the orc tribes were like before GAZ10, so having a description, even if it's a series of juvenile jokes at best and juvenile racist jokes at worst, is therefore better," that's just... bizarre, really.

 

[Mecheon]

Then talk about the actual representation of those people with the Ethengar and the Atruaghin books rather than a fantasy race that exists to showcase the orc's attempt to copy the cultures that defeated them.

So, I went and did a quick look through Orcs of Thar and, I cannot find where this is mentioned in it. Which indicates its either deep enough a casual readthrough wouldn't find it, or its in another book. I can't even find any mention of Ethengar

Heck, the only mention of the Atruaghin I found was just saying "Orclanders are similiar to the Atruaghin Clans" which. Certainly doesn't absolve this book of anything

 

[Malmuria]

Really, it's no secret that lots of things in the past contains problematic content, both because humans generally suck, and because society is (slowly) improving. But saying something is bad without offering solutions doesn't really help anyone, and doesn't really provide any new information. It doesn't take a doctoral thesis to recognise that GAZ10 is bad; I bought it when it first came out and very nearly threw it away because I personally felt grossed out by some of the depictions.

We've had recently, on this site and elsewhere, discussions about the disclaimer that wotc puts on TSR products and discussions about how wotc is changing (slowly) the depictions of humanoids so they aren't as essentialist. There has been huge backlash to both developments; in the first case some people thought there didn't need to be a disclaimer, and in the second that wotc was actually ruining the game for them. A common denominator is the argument that something in fantasy literature could never have real world implications. Given this, looking through the history of these representations is helpful, and provides much needed context to these discussions.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

but apparently copying the Romans is fine

Of course it is! The Romans don't exist anymore, and they were not a marginalized people. However, Native Americans, African Americans, and Asians have been oppressed in much of "recent" history (at least where I'm from), and the fall-out of this oppression (and the continuation of some of the practices and systems that have oppressed them for centuries) still impacts them today.

There's too many Roman knock-offs in fiction to keep track of, and no one within their right minds would call appropriating the Roman society anything but "fine". Some think it's boring.

It's such a big trope that people have tried copying it in the real world (the Nazis appropriating the Roman Salute, Mussolini trying to recreate the Roman Empire, Napoleon branding his empire as a New Roman Empire, etc).

 

[Krachek]

Of course it is! The Romans don't exist anymore, and they were not a marginalized people. However, Native Americans, African Americans, and Asians have been oppressed in much of "recent" history (at least where I'm from), and the fall-out of this oppression (and the continuation of some of the practices and systems that have oppressed them for centuries) still impacts them today.

There's too many Roman knock-offs in fiction to keep track of, and no one within their right minds would call appropriating the Roman society anything but "fine". Some think it's boring.

It's such a big trope that people have tried copying it in the real world (the Nazis appropriating the Roman Salute, Mussolini trying to recreate the Roman Empire, Napoleon branding his empire as a New Roman Empire, etc).

Indeed the Roman Empire is the classic trope to setup a sadistic emperor, decadent citizen, slavery, conquest and imperial oppression. Nobody will ask for amends.
What we need is a reverse Gaz10, a setting where natives are the ones with classes and spells!
So we need to wait that some members of those culture present us a setting where the natives are the heroes.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Of course it is! The Romans don't exist anymore, and they were not a marginalized people. However, Native Americans, African Americans, and Asians have been oppressed in much of "recent" history (at least where I'm from), and the fall-out of this oppression (and the continuation of some of the practices and systems that have oppressed them for centuries) still impacts them today.

There's too many Roman knock-offs in fiction to keep track of, and no one within their right minds would call appropriating the Roman society anything but "fine". Some think it's boring.

It's such a big trope that people have tried copying it in the real world (the Nazis appropriating the Roman Salute, Mussolini trying to recreate the Roman Empire, Napoleon branding his empire as a New Roman Empire, etc).

The main problem with Roman settings is, hilariously, that virtually all of them tone DOWN how horrifying a lot of elements of Roman culture were, rather than even presenting them accurately, let alone demonizing them.

I actually cannot think of a single setting which genuinely manages to demonize the Romans (it's probably out there but I can't think of it). Literally all of the Roman and quasi-Roman settings I can think of stop short of some of the more horrifying stuff (especially re: mass executions, mass slavery, sometimes quasi-genocidal conquest, and so on). There's always this "But they were civilized!!!!" thing. And like mate no. They were not. They just seemed like it. Reading about Roman society is always fascinating because one minute you're going "Wow, that's almost like us!" and the next you're going "JESUS WEPT THEY DID WHAT?!?!".