D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[MGibster]

I did not say that to you. You may want to recheck who I was quoting.

So it appears as though I have two options here. I can apologize or I can double down and attack to hide my embarrassment. Since this is the internet, I think it's obvious that I need to double down and attack. Just kidding. I should have read what you posted more closely and I apologize.

I just don't think it's complicated though, maybe it's my age, or my background or whatever, but I saw that coming a mile off, and it was also easy to dismiss, because they were including Damon in their cheesy popcorn movie for the exact same reason some cheesy popcorn Hollywood movies randomly include a major Chinese star in the last few years. They're trying to cross-market.

And I would actually agree that it's pretty easy most of the time. But I don't think it's always so easy.

Whereas I have a bit more sympathy with the kimono people, because even if some people aren't offended, that is being done by Westerners, and it does fit an unfortunate pattern. I don't think I'd have been surprised by that, but I suspect the people who run that art gallery are 20-30 years older than me and/or only really talk to "people like them" (which isn't even really a race thing - it's a social class thing and social circle thing).

I suspect the protestors and the museum staff responsible for the exhibits were of a fairly similar social class; Middle class college educated individuals. Most museum employees who run the show are college educated and it's usually among the privileged who can afford to go to college that I hear bring up cultural appropriation and Orientalism. Those aren't exactly the battle cries of the working class.

Here's where it gets complicated. The Japanese are not an oppressed people. They are an economic and cultural powerhouse who are heavily engaged in trade and cultural exchange with the United States and the rest of the world. Japan wasn't offended by this exhibit and most of them have no problem with westerners wearing traditional Japanese clothing. Most kimono manufacturers would love it if more Americans wore kimonos because theirs is a shrinking market and they'd love new customers. Why is it we prioritize the feelings of a few Asian Americans in this issue? The most common argument I hear is that Asian Americans are, well, Americans, and we should prioritize their feelings. Okay, I'm Americentric myself so I can kind of buy that. Others say it's because of the specific issues that Asian Americans have had to deal with over the last few centuries that the Japanese haven't. And, again, okay, but that kind demonstrates that this is somewhat complicated, no?

And we can relate this to Asian inspired role playing games. Japan, China, and Korea are all too keen on exchanging their culture with the United States. They're not an oppressed people on the worldwide stage. There won't be many Japanese people who care if someone publishes Legend of the Five Rings any more than most Americans care if a Japanese company published a western style RPG.

 

[Zardnaar]

So it appears as though I have two options here. I can apologize or I can double down and attack to hide my embarrassment. Since this is the internet, I think it's obvious that I need to double down and attack. Just kidding. I should have read what you posted more closely and I apologize.


And I would actually agree that it's pretty easy most of the time. But I don't think it's always so easy.


I suspect the protestors and the museum staff responsible for the exhibits were of a fairly similar social class; Middle class college educated individuals. Most museum employees who run the show are college educated and it's usually among the privileged who can afford to go to college that I hear bring up cultural appropriation and Orientalism. Those aren't exactly the battle cries of the working class.

Here's where it gets complicated. The Japanese are not an oppressed people. They are an economic and cultural powerhouse who are heavily engaged in trade and cultural exchange with the United States and the rest of the world. Japan wasn't offended by this exhibit and most of them have no problem with westerners wearing traditional Japanese clothing. Most kimono manufacturers would love it if more Americans wore kimonos because theirs is a shrinking market and they'd love new customers. Why is it we prioritize the feelings of a few Asian Americans in this issue? The most common argument I hear is that Asian Americans are, well, Americans, and we should prioritize their feelings. Okay, I'm Americentric myself so I can kind of buy that. Others say it's because of the specific issues that Asian Americans have had to deal with over the last few centuries that the Japanese haven't. And, again, okay, but that kind demonstrates that this is somewhat complicated, no?

And we can relate this to Asian inspired role playing games. Japan, China, and Korea are all too keen on exchanging their culture with the United States. They're not an oppressed people on the worldwide stage. There won't be many Japanese people who care if someone publishes Legend of the Five Rings any more than most Americans care if a Japanese company published a western style RPG.

Heh we had a Japanese exchange student in 1992. She gifted us kimonos. Mine didn't fit though think my sister ended up with it.

Wearing it isn't a problem being a disrespectful jackass mocking their culture in it is.

 

[Hussar]

Not easy to navigate is right. You saw some of it with the way they picked apart Oriental Adventures as well. Some of the criticism was leveled at things that came right out of Shaw Brothers films. While they may seem stereotypical to Asian-American observers, they were extremely popular among Chinese audiences - MCU or even Star Wars levels of popularity. And that reflects very different agendas. Which one do you seek approval from? Can you get it from both? Will seeking the approval from one alienate the other?

To be fair though, the primary issue with Oriental Adventures is that it pretends that Japanese culture is the only Oriental culture that exists and then grafts a few bits and bobs from other cultures over top. I mean, Kara-tur is geographically China, but, with 100% Japanese culture and history. That's not going to go over very well considering the history of the past hundred years or so.

Imagine if everything in the PHB was written in French, all the class names, proper nouns, culture, everything, and then it was presented as a European based fantasy game because, well, only French history and culture matters right?

It's pretty hard to defend OA as originally written. It's pretty much the poster child for why we're having to put warning labels on legacy products.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

To be fair though, the primary issue with Oriental Adventures is that it pretends that Japanese culture is the only Oriental culture that exists and then grafts a few bits and bobs from other cultures over top. I mean, Kara-tur is geographically China, but, with 100% Japanese culture and history. That's not going to go over very well considering the history of the past hundred years or so.

Imagine if everything in the PHB was written in French, all the class names, proper nouns, culture, everything, and then it was presented as a European based fantasy game because, well, only French history and culture matters right?

It's pretty hard to defend OA as originally written. It's pretty much the poster child for why we're having to put warning labels on legacy products.

Or imagine an RPG set in the new world where all of the indigenous people, regardless of region, were loosely based on the Inca. ALL of them- Plains Inca, Pacific Northwest Inca, Great Lakes Inca, etc.

 

[Ixal]

Or imagine an RPG set in the new world where all of the indigenous people, regardless of region, were loosely based on the Inca. ALL of them- Plains Inca, Pacific Northwest Inca, Great Lakes Inca, etc.

Or imagine a RPG set in a fantasy world which is not a 1:1 reflection of real world history...

Yes, designers, sadly, often (over)use real world countries as basis for their fantasy ones, but why does the use of country X as inspiration automatically have to mean that country Y and Z also need to be used?

So far I have not heard any complain about that when a RPG uses Vikings as inspiration that they also have to use Navarra or the Papal States, etc...

 

[pming]

Or imagine an RPG set in the new world where all of the indigenous people, regardless of region, were loosely based on the Inca. ALL of them- Plains Inca, Pacific Northwest Inca, Great Lakes Inca, etc.

I just read this, and without knowing where you're coming from, I thought... "Ooo...cool! I could get into a world like that. Inca as the baseline, with variations from other areas/cultures...neat..."

I hope you were pointing this out as a "good thing" and not a "bad thing". Because it got my imagination and desire to look more into all of the cultures above to see how you could make a cool character. I wasn't thinking D&D as a base though...somehow feels more "skill based system". Could do it with D&D though I guess.

So, um...did you mean "imagine an RPG set in the new world..." as some sort of 'bad thing'?
(Gawds I hope not...)

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[Zardnaar]

I just read this, and without knowing where you're coming from, I thought... "Ooo...cool! I could get into a world like that. Inca as the baseline, with variations from other areas/cultures...neat..."

I hope you were pointing this out as a "good thing" and not a "bad thing". Because it got my imagination and desire to look more into all of the cultures above to see how you could make a cool character. I wasn't thinking D&D as a base though...somehow feels more "skill based system". Could do it with D&D though I guess.

So, um...did you mean "imagine an RPG set in the new world..." as some sort of 'bad thing'?
(Gawds I hope not...)

^_^

Paul L. Ming

Even then there were other cultures eg Chimu.

OA may as well be called the Samurai: America Knockoff Edition (SAKE for short).

It was actually one of the first D&D books I read. Didn't like it then (1993)still don't.

Mostly because it was every boring trope or cliche. If it was fantasy not Japan with maybe sorta?

 

[Hussar]

Or imagine an RPG set in the new world where all of the indigenous people, regardless of region, were loosely based on the Inca. ALL of them- Plains Inca, Pacific Northwest Inca, Great Lakes Inca, etc.

Yes, pretty much this. IOW, overlaying a single culture over top of multiple cultures is just not a great look.

We can all think of lots and lots of examples where this is a bad idea.

 

[Hussar]

Or imagine a RPG set in a fantasy world which is not a 1:1 reflection of real world history...

Yes, designers, sadly, often (over)use real world countries as basis for their fantasy ones, but why does the use of country X as inspiration automatically have to mean that country Y and Z also need to be used?

So far I have not heard any complain about that when a RPG uses Vikings as inspiration that they also have to use Navarra or the Papal States, etc...

Well, the Viking thing has been addressed upthread. For one, using a given culture isn't a problem. Using a given culture badly is a problem. Showing a strong, powerful state of "good guys" that is based (loosely or not) on Vikings is hardly disrespectful of Viking culture is it?

When's the last time you saw an RPG Viking based setting where the Vikings are depicted as debased, demon worshipping cultists who rape and pillage their way through the countryside?

OTOH, I have a 5e module on my hard drive right now that depicts Aztec culture that way.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

When's the last time you saw an RPG Viking based setting where the Vikings are depicted as debased, demon worshipping cultists who rape and pillage their way through the countryside?

Warhammer.