D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

Ixal

Hero
Well, the Viking thing has been addressed upthread. For one, using a given culture isn't a problem. Using a given culture badly is a problem. Showing a strong, powerful state of "good guys" that is based (loosely or not) on Vikings is hardly disrespectful of Viking culture is it?

When's the last time you saw an RPG Viking based setting where the Vikings are depicted as debased, demon worshipping cultists who rape and pillage their way through the countryside?

OTOH, I have a 5e module on my hard drive right now that depicts Aztec culture that way.
And yet above you used the example "what when everyone was French" (as opposed to everyone being English like in most RPGs) as for why Oriental Adventures are bad. Nothing about it being "bad, unfaithful French".
So what is it now? Does the use of Vikings also mean you have to use other European cultures as inspiration? Or is it ok to use only Vikings when done "respectfully"? Can you use a Japanese inspired culture in your fantasy setting without also having to add China, Tibet, Vietnam, Korea, many other cultures in SE Asia, especially when you delve into history?
 
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pming

Legend
Hiya!
Even then there were other cultures eg Chimu.

OA may as well be called the Samurai: America Knockoff Edition (SAKE for short).

It was actually one of the first D&D books I read. Didn't like it then (1993)still don't.

Mostly because it was every boring trope or cliche. If it was fantasy not Japan with maybe sorta?
Different strokes and all that I think. :) Me and my group LOVED OA (assuming you mean "Oriental Adventures", for 1e...right?) when it came out. We played it for about 4 or 5 years more or less straight. Some of the most memorable PC's, situations and campaign that I ever ran or was a part of.

We played up the Japanese stuff a bit more, but there was heavy Chinese and Korean off and on. Even some Indian stuff (involving a shape shifting 'illusionist'... a Rakshasa). :)

^_^

Paul L. Ming
 

I suspect the protestors and the museum staff responsible for the exhibits were of a fairly similar social class; Middle class college educated individuals. Most museum employees who run the show are college educated and it's usually among the privileged who can afford to go to college that I hear bring up cultural appropriation and Orientalism. Those aren't exactly the battle cries of the working class.

Here's where it gets complicated. The Japanese are not an oppressed people. They are an economic and cultural powerhouse who are heavily engaged in trade and cultural exchange with the United States and the rest of the world. Japan wasn't offended by this exhibit and most of them have no problem with westerners wearing traditional Japanese clothing. Most kimono manufacturers would love it if more Americans wore kimonos because theirs is a shrinking market and they'd love new customers. Why is it we prioritize the feelings of a few Asian Americans in this issue? The most common argument I hear is that Asian Americans are, well, Americans, and we should prioritize their feelings. Okay, I'm Americentric myself so I can kind of buy that. Others say it's because of the specific issues that Asian Americans have had to deal with over the last few centuries that the Japanese haven't. And, again, okay, but that kind demonstrates that this is somewhat complicated, no?

And we can relate this to Asian inspired role playing games. Japan, China, and Korea are all too keen on exchanging their culture with the United States. They're not an oppressed people on the worldwide stage. There won't be many Japanese people who care if someone publishes Legend of the Five Rings any more than most Americans care if a Japanese company published a western style RPG.
I'd agree with most of the points you're making, but I still think this one was fairly obvious, because of the double-whammy of the original picture being from a certain era and the weird disconnected "You can wear it!" thing, which like, only really connects to the art in an odd, Orientalist way. By making a big fuss about the kimono specifically, rather than just treating as any other article of clothing in a piece of art, it's exoticizing it, and making it a thing to be "experienced". Do you see that? That's the whole "WHOA THIS IS STRANGE AND EXOTIC! HERE SEE HOW EXOTIC! BE EXOTIC!" deal there.

I mean, if they've got a long history of "Here's the clothing from the picture, you can wear it!" exhibitions, then sure, this wouldn't apply as much, but from the coverage I see, that doesn't appear to be the case. The reason they museum chose to do it was precisely because they saw it as "exotic" in a way they don't see the clothing displayed in other art. That pretty strongly supports what the protesters were saying.

Re: class, I strongly disagree. I think what you're actually looking at there isn't "working class people don't care", but rather working class people have to work so hard and deal with so many issues in the US (esp. re health care etc.) that this can't reach high on their priority list. That's not at all the same thing as "not caring". Middle-class people have enough other problems out of the way that they can take time out to go protest, and they have more connections to the middle and upper class people involved with the university, so their protests have more impact. You see this talking point that "working class people don't care" all over the world, but if they're affected, and you actually survey them about it - they do care, they just don't have time to do much about it. This is really obvious when you work with charities trying to effect social or legal change. A simple example is the class-profile of protestors as you go up the age spectrum - when you're looking at retirement age and older, you suddenly see a bunch more working-class protestors, because now they're free to do it. There's also a vocabulary issue, because education can make it easier for middle-class people to talk effectively about issues.

But being highly-educated doesn't fix not being taught that stuff was an issue in the first place. I mean, you can have your PhD and escape even thinking about that. This isn't new, either, though people act like it is - you go back through the 20th century and there's always a ton of academics pushing outdated ideas and being appalled that their students have the unmitigated gall to suggest said ideas are outdated or harmful. I literally know the sort of people who work at art museums (in the US and UK), who are indeed highly educated and mostly middle and upper-middle class, and I could really easily see this playing out - some 60-somethings in a meeting think this is a wonderful idea, any other, lower-ranking staff who say "maybe don't?" are essentially patronizingly and smilingly dismissed ("young people are so charming but so silly" - young people is anyone under about 45 here of course), and then boom what a shocker.

I think talking about kimono manufacturers is entirely missing the point. If a kimono manufacturer from Japan started advertising and trying to "make kimonos happen" in a big way, whilst they might attract some brief protest, I don't think it would be very convincing or well-supported. These kimonos were specifically commissioned by the museum, not offered by manufacturers or something (or even sponsored by them AFAICT).

Re: Japan and oppressed culture - sure, Japan isn't an oppressed culture in a worldwide sense. It's a cultural powerhouse. And what's more, it's ex-Imperial/colonial power with a history just as dark as much of the West (darker in some cases, but it's also shorter, and that's a separate discussion). It's also very keen on cultural appropriation (mostly from other imperial powers, thankfully). But that makes it a bad example, not a good one. Because usually the issues come up when it is an oppressed culture. Also, the US, specifically, has made Japanese-Americans into an oppressed culture, by, y'know literally oppressing them in living memory (I mean George Takei - Sulu - was in the camps, for goodness sake). Treating them as alien, exotic, and dangerous in a way that no, other nations did not with people from Axis powers, and also treating them inhumanely. So it behoves museums in the US to be even more careful about anything to do with Japanese culture.

Cultural appropriation is also fairly straightforward, I'd say. People like to try and overcomplicate it with weird corner cases, but conceptually, it's neutral, just a thing that happens (it's slightly unfortunate the term sounds negative, but it wasn't intended do). It's harmful when a powerful culture takes stuff from a weak one, and uses it to benefit people from the powerful culture (often across ethnic lines). The classic example is Native American cultures, where aesthetic styles, dances, and so on were used by white Americans to popularize music or dances or whatever. That's damaging to the culture it's happening to, as it treats it merely as an object for amusement and trivializes it. It's particularly bad when the cultures in question already have an oppressed/oppressor relationship historically. Cultural appropriation from other powerful cultures is obviously not the same sort of deal. Japan and America appropriating from each other isn't really an issue - both do it constantly. It can become an issue when it's not so much portraying that culture, but actively stressing that it's "exotic", "foreign", "so different", "unknowable" or stuff like that. Especially when people are involved and there are stereotypes being applied. (Japan does do a bit of harmful stereotyping of Americans I'd note, and it has had impacts on actual people over there).
 

Voadam

Legend
Even then there were other cultures eg Chimu.

OA may as well be called the Samurai: America Knockoff Edition (SAKE for short).

It was actually one of the first D&D books I read. Didn't like it then (1993)still don't.

Mostly because it was every boring trope or cliche. If it was fantasy not Japan with maybe sorta?

My preferred alternate title for Oriental Adventures is Katanas & Kung Fu. It is mostly Samurai and Ninja focused with an excellent 1e martial arts system that goes beyond Japanese styles like Karate. The Kara Tur part of OA is incredibly small, it is a book of mechanics which are mostly Japanese fantasy focused (classes and honor) with explicit setting being a very minor part. It is not until you get the later separate Kara Tur supplement that you have the Fantasy Chinese Shou Lung as a big area (along with two fantasy Japanese areas IIRC) with mostly Japanese samurai and honor as mechanics from OA where the mismatch of applying samurai honor codes becomes fairly glaring.

Mythic Nipponese Adventures would have been fine in my view as well to go along with the Dragonlance Adventures, Greyhawk Adventures, Forgotten Realms Adventures hardcover series titling theme.

Being Japanese focused is not really problematic in my view. See Legend of the Five Rings which is fantasy Japanese focused with some other East Asian stuff thrown in as well. I really enjoyed reading the 3e d20 adaptation Rokugan.

Warhammer being focused on Fantasy German Holy Roman Empire and Castle and Crusades Airdhe having a lot of French naming conventions do not seem problematic to me either.
 

My preferred alternate title for Oriental Adventures is Katanas & Kung Fu. It is mostly Samurai and Ninja focused with an excellent 1e martial arts system that goes beyond Japanese styles like Karate. The Kara Tur part of OA is incredibly small, it is a book of mechanics which are mostly Japanese fantasy focused (classes and honor) with explicit setting being a very minor part. It is not until you get the later separate Kara Tur supplement that you have the Fantasy Chinese Shou Lung as a big area (along with two fantasy Japanese areas IIRC) with mostly Japanese samurai and honor as mechanics from OA where the mismatch of applying samurai honor codes becomes fairly glaring.

Mythic Nipponese Adventures would have been fine in my view as well to go along with the Dragonlance Adventures, Greyhawk Adventures, Forgotten Realms Adventures hardcover series titling theme.

Being Japanese focused is not really problematic in my view. See Legend of the Five Rings which is fantasy Japanese focused with some other East Asian stuff thrown in as well. I really enjoyed reading the 3e d20 adaptation Rokugan.

Warhammer being focused on Fantasy German Holy Roman Empire and Castle and Crusades Airdhe having a lot of French naming conventions do not seem problematic to me either.
OA's being problem was indeed being called Oriental Adventures. Not only was that already a bit of a "grandpa title" in the 1980s, but it was really misleading, and misleading in exactly the way that was actually a problem at the time (and sometimes still is), which is the view that all "Asian" cultures are "essentially the same" or "very similar" and also that they're "exotic". OA fed that a bit by arguably over-differentiating stuff. Classes like Bushi didn't need to exist. Fighter had that. But because of exoticisation, they had to re-make Fighter as an "oriental" (sigh) class. And as you say, it super-Japan-specific, particularly in terms of classes, races, magic, weapons, etc. Not exclusive, but the focus was very clear.

If it had a better title, and was more openly Japan-centric, and maybe hadn't doubled-down on "THE EXOTIC ORIENT!!!" quite so hard with stuff like classes and honor rules and so on, I think it would be a lot better-regarded than many later titles - it was one of the first to use cultural consultants (indeed, maybe the first, and only one for a long, long time), and whilst it's overly keen on being "exotic", it's rarely negative about the cultures involved and certainly doesn't point and laugh or anything, nor stir fears that these cultures are a "threat" (which was a bit of an unfortunate trope that appeared in some RPGs - whether it's endless Asian hordes, quasi-Islamic conquerors, Japanese corporations coming to take over the US or whatever).

Lo5R/Rokugan isn't perfect but did a better job by consciously combining mythical and cultural elements from various cultures, and saying it was doing so, and combining them into a whole that looked much more like an RPG setting rather than a weird approximation of medieval Japan. I think part of the issue with OA was that, at this time with D&D, there was a strong tension between fantastic and historical elements, and some people wanted D&D to be more of a straight-up fantasy game, and others to be something close to a historical game, just with fantastical elements. This tension continued into early-mid 2E, before the success of stuff like Spelljammer, Dark Sun, Planescape, the wackier parts of the FR and so on, and just a general change in what the audience wanted (I would suggest) as younger players came in, which caused D&D to largely abandon quasi-historical stuff (a good decision, frankly). It's never gone back since.
 

I think thats a considerably uncharitable take on the situation.

Note: I'm not talking about the Washington Football Team, nor the Baseball teams.
Are you talking about some obscure college teams a Brit like me won't likely have heard of (don't need to specify the teams) or something?

Because if so sure, maybe that is uncharitable, those aren't, AFAICT, huge businesses (outside of stuff like Notre Dame) and have a duty to their students and so on, so might take such things seriously (though you seem to suggest not yourself by saying "expedient" which implies a sort of mercenary aspect). But I absolutely was talking about NFL and MLB teams and their ilk, which are gigantic businesses, who absolutely DO NOT want to rebrand unless they really, really have to. They absolutely have done consultations as smoke screens for predetermined decisions before.
 

Ixal

Hero
The Kimono thing is just completely silly as is the complaint about it being treated as "exotic".
Exotic just means that it is from a far away place you hardly have contact with, so it is new and unknown to you. And that works both ways.
Has anyone ever complained when people from Asia wear Lederhosen and throw Oktoberfest parties (sometimes not even close to October)?
No.
one.
ever.

Yet that is exactly the same as the Kimono thing, down to a piece of clothing being considered exotic and it being technically cultural appropriation which is only straightforward as long as there comes no counter argument because as soon as that happens people draw incredible loops to justify why kimonos are appropriation and lederhosen are not, sometimes right down to variations of "you can't be racist against whites because oppression" and other nonsense.
 

Warhammer.
Yeah and it speaks volumes that that's the exception, not the rule, even though, historically, that's basically how pre-Christian Vikings were written about until like, what, the 1800s, in the UK (when people started picking up on them being white and decided to romanticize the hell out of them), and that Britain was absolute traaaaaaaaaaaaaaashed by the Vikings. Repeatedly. And even the Warhammer vikings are portrayed as incredibly powerful/unstoppable, and further, almost every in-depth portrayal on them goes large on "NOT ALL NORSCANS!!!!", to be sure we don't think it's born-in.

The Rome-Aztec comparison is I think also useful. Both Roman and the Aztecs were massive, powerful empires with bigass legions which dominated, destroyed (physically or culturall) and bullied other cultures, but had remarkable achievements as well. Both killed insane numbers of people for insane reasons on the regular. The Romans, however, got us to all read their history, and understand their insane reasons, and our own culture attempted to convince us that all the bad things they did either weren't bad, actually (lol), or were tiny in comparison to the good. But with the Aztecs, there were the "other", and their culture was destroyed (intentionally), rather than taught to most schoolkids for centuries, so they just seem like terrifying weirdoes. I'm not saying either was good - both cultures, even when you understand them, were pretty psycho, but if you understand one and not the other...

Yet that is exactly the same as the Kimono thing, down to a piece of clothing being considered exotic and it being technically cultural appropriation which is only straightforward as long as there comes no counter argument because as soon as that happens people draw incredible loops to justify why kimonos are appropriation and lederhosen are not, sometimes right down to variations of "you can't be racist against whites because oppression" and other nonsense.
ROFL Jesus wept. Nothing in your post addresses anything I said. There's a big difference between Germans/German-Americans urging people to wear lederhosen and join in Oktoberfest, and some out-of-touch champagne-drinkers running a museum thinking "Let's let people wear kimonos! So exotic!". It's trivial to see. If Japanese-Americans were regularly running some kind of festival in which they encouraged everyone to take part and dress in some item of traditional Japanese attire, this wouldn't be an issue. But that's not what's happening at all. Your comparison isn't even "Apples and oranges", it's like "Apples and a spanner". That you can't see that doesn't reflect on the reality of the situation, but your analysis of it.
 

Ixal

Hero
Anti-inclusive content
ROFL Jesus wept. Nothing in your post addresses anything I said. There's a big difference between Germans/German-Americans urging people to wear lederhosen and join in Oktoberfest, and some out-of-touch champagne-drinkers running a museum thinking "Let's let people wear kimonos! So exotic!". It's trivial to see. If Japanese-Americans were regularly running some kind of festival in which they encouraged everyone to take part and dress in some item of traditional Japanese attire, this wouldn't be an issue. But that's not what's happening at all. Your comparison isn't even "Apples and oranges", it's like "Apples and a spanner". That you can't see that doesn't reflect on the reality of the situation, but your analysis of it.
What is happening is that all over Asia there are "Oktoberfests", personally observed in Hong Kong and Tokyo (in April) and no one complained when people there wore Dirndl and Lederhosen because "its exotic" to them. (And faux Oktoberfests also happen in the US by the way and no, having a german ancestor 3+ generations ago does not make you german).
Mainly because its not a problem.
The same way its no problem when a local museum where I grew up (not in Italy) let people dress up in Roman attire.
But when people in the US get to wear a kimono or yukata, things which you can buy in pretty much every gift shop in Japan and which are even rented out to tourists there, its a scandal...

It is ever only made a problem (online) in a few specific combinations ("Westerners" using something from a culture on the "politically correct to be protected" list) by people who usually have nothing to do with this culture.
 
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What is happening is that all over Asia there are "Oktoberfests", personally observed in Hong Kong and Tokyo (in April) and no one complained when people there wore Dirndl and Lederhosen because "its exotic" to them. (And faux Oktoberfests also happen in the US by the way and no, having a german ancestor 3+ generations ago does not make you german).

Mainly because its not a problem.
The same way its no problem when a local museum where I grew up (not in Italy) let people dress up in Roman attire.
But when people in the US get to wear a kimono or yukata, things which you can buy in pretty much every gift shop in Japan and which are even rented out to tourists there, its a scandal...

It is ever only made a problem (online) in a few specific combinations ("Westerners" using something from a culture on the "politically correct to be protected" list) by people who usually have nothing to do with this culture.
Wow. You know, I'm just going to leave you to it, because all you're doing is ignoring everything I (and others) write, and repeating own wacky points as if they mattered.

Before that though, I will point out that this:
no, having a german ancestor 3+ generations ago does not make you german
Is pretty funny, because I guarantee you would not be saying that to any non-white person whose ancestors had been in the US for three generations. I'd love to see you IRL saying to some Japanese-American that, because his great-grandfather was the last family member who lived in actual Japan, he doesn't get to count himself as "Japanese-American".

Also, as you've made it clear that you're not an American, but are from [secret country which has no racial or ethnic problems at all], maybe you don't get to tell German-Americans "how it works"?
 

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