D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[Thomas Shey]

But there is probably somewhat of a rationale for this.

Doesn't change the original point; its still an asymmetry, whether some people think they have a reason for it or not. And the "some people" is important here. Some people are always afraid of losing potential players to new versions of games, or other game systems too, but that doesn't make their reactions to those appropriate.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I think he means MODERN OSR people (and that itself is probably a gross generalization) like to simplify the reality of early D&D.

That might be why I said "some" with italics for emphasis, then.

(Yes, I know this is snarky, but I very much do not appreciate making a qualification in a statement, and then have people respond to the statement as thought the qualification wasn't there.)

 

[Drake2000]

Well, and REH himself was a 'failure to launch' weirdo living in his mom's attic in the 1920's. He certainly got his ideas from the wider culture, but he was not always particularly representative of it. This is probably one reason he was able to invent a whole genre of fantasy almost whole cloth, he was just that weird!

That's a gross oversimplification of Howard's life at the time. Certainly he had his issues (as we all do), but he was very much in the position of being a caregiver for his mother, decades before such a term even existed. And with those duties came a substantial amount of stress.

I have seen no evidence of his being a "weirdo." He seems to have been a loner, although he did write of friends & traveling companions in his correspondences so it's unfair to think of him as being a complete separatist from society. He lived in a somewhat desperate era, and was definitely a product of it.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I'll just note that during the period I was in D&D (about 75-78), I don't think I ever visited a group that did not have female players. They might not have been in the majority, but the West Coast fandom-based D&D culture was a pretty different beast than the primarily wargame-based ones found in some other areas.

Something I have wondered about after finishing the Elusive Shift is whether the explosion of popularity of D&D after Egbert had the strange effect of decreasing the number of female gamers (relative to the total).

The 70s culture, especially the sci-fi and west coast coast culture that wasn’t brought in from wargaming, was quite different than the influx of younger gamers in the 80s and from the war gamer culture.

IIRC, there was an anecdote about a misogynistic piece published in a zine in the late 70s that was met with swift censure - and yet I doubt it would have done so if published just a few years later.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Something I have wondered about after finishing the Elusive Shift is whether the explosion of popularity of D&D after Egbert had the strange effect of decreasing the number of female gamers (relative to the total).

The 70s culture, especially the sci-fi and west coast coast culture that wasn’t brought in from wargaming, was quite different than the influx of younger gamers in the 80s and from the war gamer culture.

IIRC, there was an anecdote about a misogynistic piece published in a zine in the late 70s that was met with swift censure - and yet I doubt it would have done so if published just a few years later.

that ask may question none of which I know how to articulate sadly.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Doesn't change the original point; its still an asymmetry, whether some people think they have a reason for it or not. And the "some people" is important here. Some people are always afraid of losing potential players to new versions of games, or other game systems too, but that doesn't make their reactions to those appropriate.

I don't think there is anything wrong with comparing one medium to another like that. Sorry I just don't. I could see a situation where someone watches a movie and says, in a way that is meant to be a criticism "That felt too much like dungeons and dragons". There would be asymmetry there. I could choose to be offended by it (either because I like the movie or I like D&D). But I don't think the person making that comparison is doing anything wrong in trying to explain why they don't like the movie in that way.

 

[BRayne]

I guess I'm just still a little surprised by how harsh Kraghammer in particular sounded in the original book. It read more like a description that would be given of a duergar city. Though, maybe that was the point?

In game Kraghammer was pretty notably restrictive, I mean it was harder for the party to get in there on a random peaceful day than to get into a Syngorn that was on a war footing and teleported into the feywild (albeit the party had more of a personal in for Syngorn). As well as in the obligatory "past war against a tyrannical dictator" Kraghammer was aligned with said tyrannical dictator.

and as for Syngorn, the recent novel paints a pretty bad picture of the attitudes towards "outsiders" there. So any changes to them would probably be in-world changes to social mores over the twenty years of difference between campaign guides. Likely in part driven by the fact that the closest claim they have to representation in the group that saved the world were two half-elves that fled the town at 15 due to how they were treated.

 

[Scott Christian]

I'll just note that during the period I was in D&D (about 75-78), I don't think I ever visited a group that did not have female players. They might not have been in the majority, but the West Coast fandom-based D&D culture was a pretty different beast than the primarily wargame-based ones found in some other areas.

Sorry. I noticed your time references later. My apologies.

My point wasn't that it didn't have women, but they were the minority - by quite a bit. They still are. I've run high school D&D for several different places. Women, it would seem, are still the minority, although not nearly as much as in the 80s. Of course, there is a footnote here, that this is just my experience, etc.

That said, I think when viewed through this lens, it does help explain several things about 80's D&D, the art being first and foremost.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I could choose to be offended by it

People don't 'choose' to be offended by things. Things are just offensive to certain people. And the idea that people are just running around trying to cause trouble by being offended is part of the problem.

 

[Bedrockgames]

People don't 'choose' to be offended by things. Things are just offensive to certain people. And the idea that people are just running around trying to cause trouble by being offended is part of the problem.

This is just something we disagree about. I think we have a good measure of control over how we react to someone comparing one type of media to another type (especially if we take a moment to consider what that person is trying to convey with the comparison).