D&D General "Red Orc" American Indians and "Yellow Orc" Mongolians in D&D

[Maxperson]

The whole point of labeling things 'evil' is to make hurting justified.

The point of labeling things evil is that they do evil things. Hurting or not comes from any conflict in stopping the evil from doing evil things. I think a lot of players like to use it as an excuse to kill creatures, but that's not the point of the label.

 

[Micah Sweet]

That's what I say challenge. I think good monsters are there provide challenges to PCs other than killing. Having to talk one down from righteous revenge(on a mostly innocent populous) for the murder of its mate for example.

Or as enemies for evil PCs, which weren't as de-pushed back in the day as they are now.

 

[Faolyn]

Gross. Where the heck did that spell come from?

Book of Exalted Deeds. It's a Good spell.

 

[Hussar]

Is it reasonable? Will it always be reasonable? Is it not possible to see the ubiquitousness of China as the land where magic Kung Fu powers are just assumed to be problematic? Might it be a bit tiresome to see your history constantly treated as a "genre"?

This is quite the situation where I can imagine a sensitivty reader looking at it, seeing that the martial arts are proper Chinese ones and influenced by genuine Chinese Wuxia films giving it a pass, and for the thing to then become subject to outside criticism.

Nope, it won't always be reasonable. It's not like this is a one and done thing and will be future proof.

But, just because it might become unreasonable at some point in the imagined future is not a good enough reason not to make it reasonable now.

Nor is the purpose to confer some sort of immunity to outside criticism. Again, it's a process, not a final product.

Finally, "a bit tiresome" is not really the bar we're looking at here is it? There is a slight difference between, "Gee, I wish they didn't always have magic kung fu martial arts in my Chinese inspired setting" and "Gee, I wish they wouldn't completely ignore my culture, overwriting it with another culture because the writers are too lazy and/or ignorant of the source material to bother actually seeing that there might be a problem with using Japanese Martial Arts in my Mythic China setting."

 

[Mordhau]

Nope, it won't always be reasonable. It's not like this is a one and done thing and will be future proof.

But, just because it might become unreasonable at some point in the imagined future is not a good enough reason not to make it reasonable now.

Nor is the purpose to confer some sort of immunity to outside criticism. Again, it's a process, not a final product.

So you share my scepticism. A lot stronger claims have been put forward in regard to sensitivity readers over the course of this thread.

Finally, "a bit tiresome" is not really the bar we're looking at here is it? There is a slight difference between, "Gee, I wish they didn't always have magic kung fu martial arts in my Chinese inspired setting" and "Gee, I wish they wouldn't completely ignore my culture, overwriting it with another culture because the writers are too lazy and/or ignorant of the source material to bother actually seeing that there might be a problem with using Japanese Martial Arts in my Mythic China setting."

It all depends on how you frame your protest.

At a certain point those who have final responsibility simply cannot avoid taking some responsbility for whether criticisms made of their products are reasonable. It cannot all be pushed off to onto sensitivtiy readers and consultants.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

It's the ultimate expression of the disease, honestly.

The whole point of labeling things 'evil' is to make hurting justified. The BoXD's just abandon all pretense and revel in the garbage soup that is the history of alignment with Paladins detecting evil and attaching everything that pings, the aligned damage spells that waste neutral people just because they're not wearing the right gang colors, Gary's advice to kill any redeemed villains so they can't backslide, and much, much more.

Okay.

Or, we could just ignore a book from 2 editions ago that most people playing today don't know exists, was never especially well regarded, and that the current edition shows absolutely no sign of taking as inspiration for it's take on alignment.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Here’s an article somewhat related to this discussion. Comedian/TV host John Stewart rece pointed out some things in the Potterverse were rooted in racist stereotypes*. Commenters on the story pointed out other ones. The article points out similar critiques of Tolkien, as well as the history of such issues in D&D.

Before Jon Stewart took on antisemitic goblins, critics called out J.R.R. Tolkien’s orcs and dwarves for racial stereotypes

Lucrative fantasy franchises like ‘Harry Potter’ and Dungeons & Dragons that rake in billions of dollars have long had a race problem

www.marketwatch.com

* he later pointed out he was NOT calling JKR a racist, but rather, that the franchise had relied on racist tropes in certain ways.

I’ve done much the same with The Phantom Menace. I don’t think George Lucas was racist, I think he was just operating on white guy autopilot, and did not consciously realize what he was doing.

 

[Zardnaar]

Here’s an article somewhat related to this discussion. Comedian/TV host John Stewart rece pointed out some things in the Potterverse were rooted in racist stereotypes*. Commenters on the story pointed out other ones. The article points out similar critiques of Tolkien, as well as the history of such issues in D&D.

Before Jon Stewart took on antisemitic goblins, critics called out J.R.R. Tolkien’s orcs and dwarves for racial stereotypes

Lucrative fantasy franchises like ‘Harry Potter’ and Dungeons & Dragons that rake in billions of dollars have long had a race problem

www.marketwatch.com

* he later pointed out he was NOT calling JKR a racist, but rather, that the franchise had relied on racist tropes in certain ways.

I’ve done much the same with The Phantom Menace. I don’t think George Lucas was racist, I think he was just operating on white guy autopilot, and did not consciously realize what he was doing.

That the Goblin thing? Haven't seen the movies. Were the gobbis running the banks.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

Here’s an article somewhat related to this discussion. Comedian/TV host John Stewart rece pointed out some things in the Potterverse were rooted in racist stereotypes*. Commenters on the story pointed out other ones. The article points out similar critiques of Tolkien, as well as the history of such issues in D&D.

Before Jon Stewart took on antisemitic goblins, critics called out J.R.R. Tolkien’s orcs and dwarves for racial stereotypes

Lucrative fantasy franchises like ‘Harry Potter’ and Dungeons & Dragons that rake in billions of dollars have long had a race problem

www.marketwatch.com

* he later pointed out he was NOT calling JKR a racist, but rather, that the franchise had relied on racist tropes in certain ways.

I’ve done much the same with The Phantom Menace. I don’t think George Lucas was racist, I think he was just operating on white guy autopilot, and did not consciously realize what he was doing.

A succinct article which points out most of the main issues.

Looking at the pushback in the comments section, we can see a variety of "arguments" that we're all familiar with by now.

1) Dismissing it out of hand
2) Saying "let history be history"
3) Accusing people who point out racism of being racists
4) Blaming the "SJW crowd" and "PC Police"
5) Suggesting that many of the stereotypes are, in fact, accurate
6) Blaming the "parasitic class" (aka "coastal elites" and "woke Hollywood/media.")

Spoiler: Pushback

These people who are continually sifting through everything to put it through their own prism of history very reminiscent of the type of racial stereotyping they claim to be trying to eradicate. They wish to judge everyone by their narrow standards of acceptability and to reshape society according to their current notions. Why not just leave the past alone and try to live in a better today? We are all aware of history and do not need it thrown in our faces every minute of every day.

Those who are the likeliest to be offended by various stereotypes are the ones least likely to read about them.

Let’s step back for a moment. No matter how the Tolkien or Rowling characters resemble some stereotype or another, both authors went to great extents to shine a light on racism and hate. Trying to kill off muggles is straight from the ranks of the Nazi SS. No author can confront these issues without someone feeling it singles out their race or culture on either the racist or targeted side. Call off the PC Police and let’s discuss the real issues the authors are trying to present.

What do you have to ask yourself are there of the stereotypes accurate or in accurate? And why have Those stereotypes been attributed to them? Was it just picked out of the ether?

Browsing through these Twitter posts, al I see is people digging deep into closets looking for anything they can find that will fit their hysterical and ever-evolving definition of racism. Nobody would even notice such things if Twitter SJWs would stop throwing it in our faces. Who is doing more to keep racism alive?

Members of the parasitic class get paid big money for this kind of drivel.

"Before Jon Stewart took on antisemitic goblins, critics called out J.R.R. Tolkien’s orcs and dwarves for racial stereotypes"OMG please check the Asylum doors and make sure the are not open =)

Hope Jon Stewart or his parents never uttered "goyim" disparagingly.

Takeaway from this article: don't be racist to orcs and dwarves...

ENWorld is a bastion of enlightened thought in comparison to this.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

That the Goblin thing? Haven't seen the movies. Were the gobbis running the banks.

Yes, they ran the banks. And were greedy, scheming, big-nosed, short, yellow-skinned people. They're an obvious caricature of Jewish people.