Reincarnation and Level Adjustments

[Cabral]

No ... as I stated, the ability to polymorph is a balanced inherent ability of certain classes. If one class merits an LA, it's not blanced. If one spell merits an LA, it's not balanced. The Polymorph spell is a blanced ability of balanced classes.

The reincarnate spell alters another character. It is balanced that a 7th level druid can cast it. a character of any level can recieve it. However, the spell alters the recipient power level (in the case of a bugbear) and therefore the challenge posed by enemies the recipient and his party faces. Thus, an LA is merited. The same is true for starting the game with a more powerful race.

Anytime a condition alters the power level above or below the norm an adjustment to the xp awarded is order. (usually an LA for increases, a CR boost for decreases) Since a 7th level wizard polymorphing is the norm, it cannot result in an LA.

You can argue that polymorphing is not a balanced spell, but arguing that it merits an LA when used is not valid. I'm sorry.

 

[IanB]

In addition, even if you're talking about polymorph any object, I still don't think the comparison holds up.

As a permanent duration spell, polymorph any object is dispellable. Reincarnation is not. Once a character is reincarnated as a new race, there really isn't any action an outside party can take to take that away from the character against his will. You could kill him, and cast it on him, but he can just say no and hold out for his friends to get him a raise dead or true ressurection or whatever. The character is permanently altered in a way that PAO cannot match.

Polymorph any object also has detrimental effects on the character as far as retaining his own mental ability scores goes; reincarnation does not. Unless you're turning into something relatively similar in size or dumber than you start as, the change won't even be permanent.

I don't think the situations are especially comparable.

 

[Scion]

No ... as I stated, the ability to polymorph is a balanced inherent ability of certain classes.

and I stated why this mode of thinking is incorrect. It is inherantly flawed in several ways, the least of which is that the effect is simply a matter of spending a little cash.

The reincarnate spell alters another character. It is balanced that a 7th level druid can cast it. a character of any level can recieve it. However, the spell alters the recipient power level (in the case of a bugbear) and therefore the challenge posed by enemies the recipient and his party faces. Thus, an LA is merited. The same is true for starting the game with a more powerful race.

So you are saying that one is a spell which gives a benefit and needs and LA while the other is merely a spell which gives the same benefit and so does not.

Note that being reincarnated is not the same as starting as that race. Reincarnate is much closer to polymorph than it is to the other.

So no, I do not see your point. It sounds to me as though you are trying to justify your position because you like one outcome while ignoring the balance implications.

As a permanent duration spell, polymorph any object is dispellable. Reincarnation is not.

You might want to check out break enchantment. But then wish, and limited wish, could also make someone go back to their original form as well.

So, while not directly dispellable, that isnt important, the change can be undone.

Of course the newly reincarnated guy could be polymorphed into a creature without an LA as well, at which point it is enjoying none of the benefits while still holding the penalty.

Something is 'clearly' wrong with some part of the equation.

Also, you might want to check over polymorph any object again. While it is true that objects can change in wis and cha, creatures do not (unless they had a dash for those scores before, but then they dont make much for pcs in that state). Int does change but it is very easy to find creatures with good physical stats and a good int score, so that means that the bonus 'increases' beyond that of what we were talking about.

So, an even 'greater' boon and yet still not putting out an LA. Odd isnt it.


Again though, if one wants to go one way for one of them it should go the same way for both. Considering all of the implications and the arguements presented so far this only makes sense.

 

[IanB]

Wish and miracle are the only effects that can change a reincarnated individual back to his/her original form. Break enchantment does say it can reverse instantaneous transmutations, but I think that is superceded by the language in reincarnation calling out wish and miracle specifically as the effects that can reverse it. That also rules out limited wish, since it could only duplicate break enchantment. Even if break enchantment COULD reverse it, good luck getting a spell with a 1 minute casting time off on an unwilling target.

"A wish or a miracle spell can restore a reincarnated character to his or her original form."

The use of the word 'restore' to me implies that the character would have to be willing, but that's a very arguable point so we can ignore it if you like.

Dispel magic and greater dispel magic on the other hand happen all the time by the time you hit level 15 and have the option of PAO-ed characters running around.

The bottom line is enemies have recourse to deal with PAO. It is just not that hard for CR15+ enemies to deal with. They really don't have recourse to deal with reincarnate, and reincarnate happens much earlier in the game. That's why LA must apply.

 

[Scion]

Break enchantment does say it can reverse instantaneous transmutations, but I think that is superceded by the language in reincarnation calling out wish and miracle specifically as the effects that can reverse it.

Yep, break enchantment would merely kill the poor guy. Too bad for him


And still though, the point stands is that the bonuses are there for a long period of time either way and as such the same sort of penalties should apply. Especially for the one that gives 'more' benefits.

 

[Cabral]

Before this goes any further. I don't want this to devolve into "I'm right - you're wrong"... as long as it doesn't I'll be happy to explain my position

and I stated why this mode of thinking is incorrect. It is inherantly flawed in several ways, the least of which is that the effect is simply a matter of spending a little cash.

As long as that cash (assuming all costs are appropriate - no discount polymorph at will ioun stones), then this falls into "the norm" therefore, by definition no LA is needed. If, on the other hand, your 3rd level party has 30,000 gp in gear, then an LA is probably in order ...

So you are saying that one is a spell which gives a benefit and needs and LA while the other is merely a spell which gives the same benefit and so does not.

Note that being reincarnated is not the same as starting as that race. Reincarnate is much closer to polymorph than it is to the other.

You're right. It's not the same. It's better! You slog through 7 levels as a humie then "accidently" die in front of a druid. One lucky roll later, you've been reincarnated as a bugbear (not to pick on the OP's example ) You lose a level but gain 3HD of monstrous humanoid ... voila you are now ECL 10 for the xp of 7th level. If, on the other hand, you had started as a bugbear (and not died), the same 21,000 (7th level for LA+0) would put you at level 3 (class level) + 3 HD +1 LA = ECL 7.

Granted for the reincarnated version, it's going to be very boring for a while as in order to gain a level he has to earn 55,000 (ECL 11) - 18,000 (current xp*) = 37,000 xp.
*If I recall correctly, losing a level puts you halfway into the lower level.

However, on your point about reincarnate being closer to polymorph than being the creature from the begining, conceptually you are right. Mechanicly you are wrong. A 3rd level bugbear rogue is a 3rd level bugbear rogue is a 3rd level bugbear rogue, no matter how he came to be one. It doesn't matter if one started out as one or if he was reincarnated into one. It's the same. (Mechanically speaking)

So no, I do not see your point. It sounds to me as though you are trying to justify your position because you like one outcome while ignoring the balance implications.

While I am very forgiving as to what consitutes unbalanced in my games, it's because I know my players won't abuse it, not because I don't give it much thought. If you feel I am ignoring balance considerations, perhaps I am having a difficult time conveying my point because it is so apparent to me.

You might want to check out break enchantment. But then wish, and limited wish, could also make someone go back to their original form as well.

So, while not directly dispellable, that isnt important, the change can be undone.

I agree with Ianb about the applicability of break enchantment and limited wish. As for wish and miracle, they're 9th level spells... they can do a lot! Not only can they change you back from reincarnate, but they can change you into something else! (See Savage Species) However, note that there is an inherent balancing factor (beyond the 17th level caster requirement): XP cost. If you cast it enough, it'll knock you down so much on XP that you might as well have an LA...

Of course the newly reincarnated guy could be polymorphed into a creature without an LA as well, at which point it is enjoying none of the benefits while still holding the penalty.

Something is 'clearly' wrong with some part of the equation.

Not exactly... polymorph doesn't change mental stats so reincarnated characters could still be enjoying the benefit to mental abilities ... also, a bugbear polymorphed into an elf can better fit in socially....

Also, you might want to check over polymorph any object again. While it is true that objects can change in wis and cha, creatures do not (unless they had a dash for those scores before, but then they dont make much for pcs in that state). Int does change but it is very easy to find creatures with good physical stats and a good int score, so that means that the bonus 'increases' beyond that of what we were talking about.

So, an even 'greater' boon and yet still not putting out an LA. Odd isnt it.

Again though, if one wants to go one way for one of them it should go the same way for both. Considering all of the implications and the arguements presented so far this only makes sense.

If you think polymorph any object is fun, you should see shapechange.

However, my point still stands: Polymorph (and friends) cannot and should not incur a level adjustment for their use. The reason for this is that they are balanced components of a class and are scaled in power for that class at that level.

I should hope that polymorph offers some spiffy abilities. you are casting it instead of a metamagic-ed bull's strength.

 

[Scion]

You lose a level but gain 3HD of monstrous humanoid ... voila you are now ECL 10 for the xp of 7th level. If, on the other hand, you had started as a bugbear (and not died), the same 21,000 (7th level for LA+0) would put you at level 3 (class level) + 3 HD +1 LA = ECL 7.

However, on your point about reincarnate being closer to polymorph than being the creature from the begining, conceptually you are right. Mechanicly you are wrong. A 3rd level bugbear rogue is a 3rd level bugbear rogue is a 3rd level bugbear rogue, no matter how he came to be one. It doesn't matter if one started out as one or if he was reincarnated into one. It's the same. (Mechanically speaking)

Considering that you do not gain the hd I feel that you are working off a point that does not exist in the rules. As such, you may want to look over your position.

A character starting off as a bugbear has hd and an LA to play with. A creature reincarnated into one or polymorphed into one do not have those problems.

A character starting as a bugbear has a penalty to cha. A creature reincarnated into one or polymorphed into one do not have this penalty.

So no, it is not the same. Far from it. They are very different in form.

However, my point still stands: Polymorph (and friends) cannot and should not incur a level adjustment for their use. The reason for this is that they are balanced components of a class and are scaled in power for that class at that level.

I suppose reincarnate should be placed in 'and friends' given how similar it is then. Apparently it is scaled for that level and is a general use ability, anyone could have it done.

As shown multiple times in this thread so far, polymorph and reincarnate have some definate similiarities. More than starting as the actual race definately.

I should hope that polymorph offers some spiffy abilities. you are casting it instead of a metamagic-ed bull's strength.

A metamagiced bulls strength? what good would that do? It certainly isnt anywhere near the same power level of polymorph, even back when bulls strength could be empowered. They arent even on the same plane of power levels the disparity is so huge.

 

[Cabral]

Considering that you do not gain the hd I feel that you are working off a point that does not exist in the rules. As such, you may want to look over your position.

A character starting off as a bugbear has hd and an LA to play with. A creature reincarnated into one or polymorphed into one do not have those problems.

Okay, this may be a rules interpretation issue. Looking at Reincarnate, it's silent as to whether or not character reincarnated into a Bugbear gains Hit Dice. It lists a selection of abilities that it gains and Hit Dice is not on that list, but it ends with the open-ended "and the like" ... so do you have definitive source that reincarnate does not grant the racial hit dice? It does say base saves, base attacks are unchanged, but if you want to say that prevents the addition of hit dice, it would also prevent the loss of a level ...

A character starting as a bugbear has a penalty to cha. A creature reincarnated into one or polymorphed into one do not have this penalty.

So no, it is not the same. Far from it. They are very different in form.

Actually the lack of mental modifiers caught me off guard. However, in this case, that means that reincarnated as a bugbear is even better (pending hit dice issue) than I made it out to be.

I suppose reincarnate should be placed in 'and friends' given how similar it is then. Apparently it is scaled for that level and is a general use ability, anyone could have it done.

As shown multiple times in this thread so far, polymorph and reincarnate have some definate similiarities. More than starting as the actual race definately.

A metamagiced bulls strength? what good would that do? It certainly isnt anywhere near the same power level of polymorph, even back when bulls strength could be empowered. They arent even on the same plane of power levels the disparity is so huge.

1) I still disagree; reincarnate shares more in common with starting out as a race than polymorphing into it.
2) Bull's strength was the best I could think of off the top of my head ... I was thinking more of an extended Bull's Strength, but yeah it's a lame choice ... man I miss 1 hour/level ...

 

[Scion]

it's silent as to whether or not character reincarnated into a Bugbear gains Hit Dice. It lists a selection of abilities that it gains and Hit Dice is not on that list, but it ends with the open-ended "and the like"

So you are saying that a hd is an ability? I think that is a pretty big stretch.

In any event though, the spell says what you get. If you gained hd then your bab would change your saves would change and your hp would change. Although you do lose a level which can make these things different than before I feel that is working off of a seperate mechanic and is treated as such.

You get the shifts that it says and not the ones that it ignores, I dont see anything there to suggest hd are gained through the spell.

Actually the lack of mental modifiers caught me off guard.

And, again, makes it even more like polymorph and even less like being the race originally.

1) I still disagree; reincarnate shares more in common with starting out as a race than polymorphing into it.
2) Bull's strength was the best I could think of off the top of my head ... I was thinking more of an extended Bull's Strength, but yeah it's a lame choice ... man I miss 1 hour/level ...

1) I keep listing off ways it is different from being the original race and ways it is the same as polymorph. At this point I would like to see your complete list of the fors and againsts.
2) I am not really sure what the point of the comment was the first time, is there a point other than 'different spells do different things'?

 

[Cabral]

So you are saying that a hd is an ability? I think that is a pretty big stretch.

In any event though, the spell says what you get. If you gained hd then your bab would change your saves would change and your hp would change. Although you do lose a level which can make these things different than before I feel that is working off of a seperate mechanic and is treated as such.

You get the shifts that it says and not the ones that it ignores, I dont see anything there to suggest hd are gained through the spell.

I'm not saying HD is an ability. I'm saying reincarnate makes you a bugbear and you're not a bugbear without the 3HD ... It's an inherent quality of being a bugbear. (Not that I agree with WotC's decision to define the weakest bugbear as 3HD, or representing a centaurs mass with HD...)

As far as reading reincarnate, I would have to agree with your reading of it ... which means, there's a new house rule (that will likely never come up since no one is playing a druid ...) ... however, that creates a potential problem as the LA of a creature is appropriate to the HD attached to it. (in other words, if you strip the HD, you have to recalculate the LA) This isn't really a problem for the bugbear as I don't think it merits more than a +1 LA without the HD ...

This still makes being reincarnating as a bugbear better than starting out as one.