D&D 5E Revel's End... magi-tech that jumps the shark!

[grimslade]

I was weaned on pulp fantasy and Thundarr the Barbarian so magi-tech is not a deal breaker to me. Lazy writing is lazy writing. There are ways that magic would approach keeping people imprisoned that would not correlate to modern tech. Bring that to the mix and I am a happy DM. I don't want a rehash of Mission Impossible and Prison Break scenes, new content is key. Fun content is top though.

 

[humble minion]

I can deal with a bit of magitech, especially in a kitchen-sink world like FR. It's not my thing particularly, but it's not horrendously out of place.

What bugs me with this sort of thing is when the worldbuilding implications aren't taken into account. All the magitech is very fine, but tech is tech - is this tech that the PCs can use, or learn, or make themselves, or is it just lazy arbitrary 'it's magic!' handwaving? If the whole thing was put together by wizards using the magic item creation and spell permanency rules, who were these wizards and why did they devote such a horrifying amount of their time and energy into making something like this? Can my PCs find them and bribe them into giving up the secret entrances? Why aren't all these precautions standard in every prison/vault/dragon hoard/evil lair in the world?

I'm all for fantasy heists, but if I'm running a fantasy heist i want to run a FANTASY heist, not a scenario stolen from a modern-day movie with all the tech replaced on a one-to-one basis with magic items. D&D has been around long enough to have its own toolkit and set of options and limitations to run a heist with, enforcing a completely different genre on it by DM fiat seems lazy.

It's a matter of taste I suppose. I hate it when adventures introduce a concept or item that would have huge setting implications, but it's only used to cut down on the options that PCs have in one particular adventure and is never seen again, and certainly the PCs never get to use it. The puzzles from Tasha's were another example, a chapter of stinky poop in an otherwise good book. All these puzzles to open doors or chests or whatever, and for the entire challenge to work the book just has to arbitrarily declare that the locks can't be picked, the puzzle can't be mechanically disabled or opened with spells, magic can't be used to bypass the door, etc etc etc. The DM decides the PCs are going to have to solve a word puzzle, and nothing else would do, no matter if the rogue has spent their lives becoming the world's best safecracker or the wizard knows every infiltration spell in the realms.

Adventures should make sense in the context of the world. I'm not sure Revel's End does.

 

[TheSword]

I think I would de-sci-fI the place.

The magic is the result of a mythal (if it isn’t already) covering abjurations, anti-magic and detections.

The control panel isn’t operated by buttons but there os a nexus for the mythal that can be triggered by incanting specific phrases. No different to any other Magic item..

Instead of a HUD I would have the FR equivalent of the Marauder’s Map which shows where folks are and again has the phrases marked on it that act as keys to the mythal.

 

[Oofta]

I finally had a chance to read through the mod myself and I don't really see that much that would ever have been particularly out of place. The maps are just a cool way of providing them info, you could easily change that if you want. I don't see the control panel as being much different from the ubiquitous switch that can turn off the magical trap. This level of magic was all over the place in the Tomb of Horrors campaign that just wrapped up, it's just presented slightly differently.

A mod like this wouldn't have been out of place had it been released 20 or 30 years ago. I guess I just don't see what the issue is, no module is going to appeal to everyone.

 

[Reaper Steve]

I can deal with a bit of magitech, especially in a kitchen-sink world like FR. It's not my thing particularly, but it's not horrendously out of place.

What bugs me with this sort of thing is when the worldbuilding implications aren't taken into account. All the magitech is very fine, but tech is tech - is this tech that the PCs can use, or learn, or make themselves, or is it just lazy arbitrary 'it's magic!' handwaving? If the whole thing was put together by wizards using the magic item creation and spell permanency rules, who were these wizards and why did they devote such a horrifying amount of their time and energy into making something like this? Can my PCs find them and bribe them into giving up the secret entrances? Why aren't all these precautions standard in every prison/vault/dragon hoard/evil lair in the world?

I'm all for fantasy heists, but if I'm running a fantasy heist i want to run a FANTASY heist, not a scenario stolen from a modern-day movie with all the tech replaced on a one-to-one basis with magic items. D&D has been around long enough to have its own toolkit and set of options and limitations to run a heist with, enforcing a completely different genre on it by DM fiat seems lazy.

It's a matter of taste I suppose. I hate it when adventures introduce a concept or item that would have huge setting implications, but it's only used to cut down on the options that PCs have in one particular adventure and is never seen again, and certainly the PCs never get to use it. The puzzles from Tasha's were another example, a chapter of stinky poop in an otherwise good book. All these puzzles to open doors or chests or whatever, and for the entire challenge to work the book just has to arbitrarily declare that the locks can't be picked, the puzzle can't be mechanically disabled or opened with spells, magic can't be used to bypass the door, etc etc etc. The DM decides the PCs are going to have to solve a word puzzle, and nothing else would do, no matter if the rogue has spent their lives becoming the world's best safecracker or the wizard knows every infiltration spell in the realms.

Adventures should make sense in the context of the world. I'm not sure Revel's End does.

Well said! I shall enlist you to articulate my arguments in the future!

 

[Stormonu]

2E was pretty horrible in trying to cut out all the non-psuedo medieval stuff from the game (Tale of the Comet and Mystara perhaps being the only exception) and trying to make you feel bad if you didn't. One reason a lot of the 2E adventures were horrible is because they refused to account for the sort of magic (items or spells) the party might have on hand. The green Historical campaign books are a prime example of how the designers wished they could cut out magic from the game. They only begrudgingly allowed magic in those books and punished spellcasters however they could, rather than make attempts to positively incorporate magic as a sort of "secret world" behind the historical scenes.

AD&D had a lot of sci-fi/modern Easter eggs hidden about, often making me wonder if Greyhawk wasn't some post-apocalyptic world where magic was actually some form of super-ancient technology (Rain of Colorless Fire, Mighty Servant of Luke-O, Myrlund, etc.) or maybe a forgotten colony world in the Star Frontiers universe.

However, since at least the release of Eberron in 3E we've been seeing a slow reversal of all of this as "magic as mundane modern tech" - sending stones being one of the most egregious to me.

As others have stated, in the end it's a taste thing. Some will like it, some won't. For me, my homebrew actually had an ancient technological age and there's some parts of the world where magic-as-tech and tech-as-magic exists, but as one rapidly moves away from such centers it becomes rare enough to not be heard of. Allows me to run the gamut with my Arcane City in the west and the Conan-like borderlands in the east.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

If you like this stuff don’t apologize. If you think it sucks, don’t apologize.

Pick you world’s flavor and go all in.

I am ok with barrier peaks anomalies. I don’t get into Eberron level pervasiveness. To each their own.

What is hard is really coming to terms with the notion that you don’t represent the current zeitgeist and tone.

Join me all ye pre-fifty year old grogs in the f—ing fossil club! Card carrying member!

I do chuckle at how trends go though. You would be hard pressed to find pseudo European medieval warrior types anywhere (talking armor and weapons, not race/species/heritage).

 

[Paul Farquhar]

True, but that was a self-contained scenario. And it served a hidden purpose - TSR used it to explore development of a sci-fi RPG concepts.

Prisoner 13 is a self contained scenario. And Metamorphosis Alpha predates Barrier Peaks. But laser weapons are in the 5e DMG. The 1st edition DMG had crossovers with Gamma World and Boot Hill, Cthulhu Mythos was in the 1st edition Deities and Demigods, Gary Gygax wrote an adventure based on Alice in Wonderland, Revel's End first appeared in an an adventure heavily inspired by The Thing (but with references to Alien, At the Mountains of Madness, and lots of other sci fi horror) Jalhera impersonates a Cylon in Baldur's Gate....

Dungeon's & Dragons: jumping over sharks since before The Fonz could ride a motorcycle.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I do chuckle at how trends go though. You would be hard pressed to find pseudo European medieval warrior types anywhere

That was based on a Hollywood romantic idea of knights in shining armour history that was already going out of fashion when D&D was created in the 1970s. It's not surprising it's pretty much dead by now.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

What bugs me with this sort of thing is when the worldbuilding implications aren't taken into account.

From a worldbuilding point of view, what doesn't make sense about the Forgotten Realms is how come there isn't far more of this stuff, since the setting is crammed full of massively powerful spellcasters.

All the magitech is very fine, but tech is tech - is this tech that the PCs can use, or learn, or make themselves, or is it just lazy arbitrary 'it's magic!' handwaving?

Do you know how a mobile phone works? Well enough that you could build one yourself?


"Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology."

 

[Nadan]

From a worldbuilding point of view, what doesn't make sense about the Forgotten Realms is how come there isn't far more of this stuff, since the setting is crammed full of massively powerful spellcasters.

It is more of an inequality problem, just like real world. You have places like Halruaa or Thay that magic is everywhere, or basically live in dirt (or ice) like Icewind dale.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

It is more of an inequality problem, just like real world. You have places like Halruaa or Thay that magic is everywhere, or basically live in dirt (or ice) like Icewind dale.

Revel's End is only Icewind Dale geographically. It's basically a Waterdeep Exclave, and Waterdeep has plenty high magic.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

That was based on a Hollywood romantic idea of knights in shining armour history that was already going out of fashion when D&D was created in the 1970s. It's not surprising it's pretty much dead by now.

Yes. Cat people with laser tails for the more grounded/historical win!

In all seriousness, there were medieval arms and armor. I am not advocating for “knights in shining armor” per se.

It’s a taste thing—-so ymmv but I don’t find the newer art direction to be to my liking.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Edit: Thanks to the discourse below, I realized that I missed that Revel's End was previously covered in Rime of the Frostmaiden, and that almost all of the issues I have with its portrayal in Keys From the Golden Vault already existed verbatim in that previous publication. That doesn't really change my opinion, but I do want to acknowledge that this means it's not a Golden Vault issue.

I was excited for Golden Vault's promise of 13 heist scenarios, but after perusing the 'Prisoner 13' scenario on D&D Beyond, I fear not only for the quality of this product, but for the fate of D&D's interpretation of fantasy gaming as I know and love it. Granted, I'm getting long in the tooth, but this is getting ridiculous.

My observations require spoilers, so:

Spoiler: Prisoner 13 jumps the shark

You can't just slap an 'it's magic!' label on everything and still hope to maintain some verisimilitude and continuity. Yes, I am aware of Clarke's quote ("Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic”), but that doesn't work in reverse... high technology concepts shouldn't be inserted into fantasy and then just accepted as magic.'Prisoner 13's' egregious violations of this include:
1. A quest monologue shamelessly stolen from 'Mission: Impossible.' (OK, that's not a direct magic-tech issue, but it paves the way.)
2. A holographic interactive map that shows patrol routes and unlocks doors
3. Prolific and convenient continual flames, magical heating, arcane locks, and anti-magic fields
4. A surveillance hub with what is essentially a computer console that controls gates, doors, and a public address system.
These aren't magic, this is unjustifiable technology that is anachronistic (even in the context of the FR) hiding behind a cheap label of 'magic.'
It's lazy.

I feel the same effects could have been accomplished while honoring magic as magic. How about a small staff of wizards using scrying and a crystal ball for surveillance? And the wizards have to cast and dispel their arcane locks?
Anyway, this is just another step in D&D moving from fantasy to heroic fantasy to fantasy superheroes to now science fiction without lasers. Ugh.

To me what this says is that they've actually done a little world building using the D&D rules and haven't decided that wizard hats should all have the letter D painted on them.

If we look at the spells Arcane Lock and Continual Flame we find the duration "Until Dispelled" on both of them. In literally any controlled environment in D&D 5e where money isn't an issue these two spells should be staples. A cheap lock costs 10GP and is DC15 to pick for anyone proficient in thieves' tools, while adding Arcane Lock is 25GP in reagents and raises that to DC 25 while increasing the break DC by 10. Not going for arcane locks for anything significant (or even interesting) is simply penny pinching. The lack of a canon cheap permanent method of heating (either for heating buildings or cooking) feels more like an oversight than anything else.

Spoiler

And Anti-magic fields are a D&D staple - and holding prisoners is absurdly hard in D&D without.

Yes it's a magi-tech system. It's D&D magic.

As for "a small staff of wizards using scrying and a crystal ball for surveillance"? The prison itself is based on Bentham's Panopticon so it doesn't need it. Having wizards continually casting and dispelling their arcane locks at 25GP a throw when they are explicitly able to be opened under set conditions would be silly and unjustifiable. Scrying offers saving throws - and things that shut down magic as you might want to do to prisoners also shut it down.

As for D&D moving into science fiction without lasers people have mentioned Barrier Peaks and I'd add to that the sheer reproducible and consistent nature of D&D magic with no backlash is a science fiction thing. But that line was crossed with a vengeance with 3.0 in 2000 definitively putting the enchantment of reliable magic items under the control of the players. 3.0 wasn't just trying to be science fiction but hard science fiction, ensuring that almost everything was a feat or a spell-like ability. 4e and following it 5e walked that back. This isn't trying to shut the barn door after the horse has bolted. The horses have not only bolted, but bolted long ago some of them have grandchildren.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Yes. Cat people with laser tails for the more grounded/historical win!

It's a win in that by not pretending to be historical, it's not perpetuating an untruth.

In all seriousness, there were medieval arms and armor.

There was a vast mishmash of arms and armour from a wide range of periods and locations, as well as things, like studded leather armour, than never existed.

I am not advocating for “knights in shining armor” per se.

Shining armour was a thing. But it was sports equipment.

It’s a taste thing—-so ymmv but I don’t find the newer art direction to be to my liking.

It's also a fashion thing. D&D is subject to cultural changes, just like everything else.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The lack of a canon cheap permanent method of heating

There is a Cube of Warmth in RotFM.

 

[Neonchameleon]

There is a Cube of Warmth in RotFM.

Thermal Cube and thanks.

 

[Neonchameleon]

What bugs me with this sort of thing is when the worldbuilding implications aren't taken into account. All the magitech is very fine, but tech is tech - is this tech that the PCs can use, or learn, or make themselves,

In the case of the Everburning Torches and Arcane Locks, very explicitly yes they are standard spells. In the case of anti-magic fields they can definitely use it but there can't make them themselves. I'm fairly sure it's easy for the PCs to throw together an amplify spell. It's only the map that's the problem - and the PCs can not only use that they are given it.

or is it just lazy arbitrary 'it's magic!' handwaving? If the whole thing was put together by wizards using the magic item creation and spell permanency rules, who were these wizards and why did they devote such a horrifying amount of their time and energy into making something like this?

Why do you think it's "A horrifying amount of time and energy"? I mean Arcane Lock and Everburning Torches take seconds to cast, and this appears to be a Panopticon-style maximum security prison.

Can my PCs find them and bribe them into giving up the secret entrances? Why aren't all these precautions standard in every prison/vault/dragon hoard/evil lair in the world?

Because a dragon considers itself to to be the main security its horde needs; why would the cheese in a mouse trap need more security than the trap itself. Why aren't all prisons maximum security? That should answer itself. Evil lairs want to be a bit more secretive so don't build on Panopticon lines (a real thing btw).

I'm all for fantasy heists, but if I'm running a fantasy heist i want to run a FANTASY heist, not a scenario stolen from a modern-day movie with all the tech replaced on a one-to-one basis with magic items. D&D has been around long enough to have its own toolkit and set of options and limitations to run a heist with, enforcing a completely different genre on it by DM fiat seems lazy.

The only thing I noticed as having been stolen rather than being a D&D staple was the map. If you're mad at tech being replaced by magic get mad at D&D.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

You could always use the Apparatus of Kwalish.

 

[pukunui]

I just took the time to sit down and read this thoroughly, and I really don’t see what all the fuss is about. The only thing that‘s notably sci-fi is the design of the player-facing magic map. And in-game, the only interactive element is its ability to unlock doors.

There’s also no computer in there. Just a console with switches that control the cell doors, a dial that controls the room‘s lighting, and a magic trumpet PA system. Nothing particularly out of the ordinary there – and not hugely different to, say, the console found in the Tomb of the Nine Gods in Tomb of Annihilation.

I‘m also not bothered by the magical heating, lighting, etc. That makes sense in the FR context, where one can also find things like magical plumbing.

The elevator on the outside reminds me of the one on the Wall in Game of Thrones, which is fine by me. It was probably built by priests of Gond, like the cranes used on the docks of Baldur’s Gate.

The only bit that bothers me is the idea that the guards are able to do a full 8-hour shift in subzero temperatures on the exposed roofs of the guard towers. Judging by the picture, the tops of the towers should be enclosed (and also have some magical heating/lighting).

Another comment: in the promo video, Amanda Hamon says the player-facing maps aren’t always 100% accurate. In this case, I can’t see anything “wrong“ with the map. Have I missed anything?