That is not how it works. You need to show that something needs an overhaul. It is wasted time to prove that something has to stay as is. The work hypothesis should be everything is ok if it does not interrupt the game. Otherwise you don't get anywhere.
Look at 4e. The constant revision because some people abused rules that worked in 99 percent of all cases and only broke if you interpreted rules in a very twisted way.
Not sure about the relationship of all that with thinking if something is balanced or not.
Yes there is. They did a lengthy extensive playtest to measure balance, tested it internally, then with a smaller paid consultant group of third party objective creators from a wide array of experience, then with with many surveys both to a smaller professional group of playtesters, then to a much larger audience in the largest public playtest of any RPG ever, and got as much data as any company has ever gotten to measure balance perspectives on the class. It came out balanced.
Once you get that, the burden is on those claiming it's not balanced to provide any evidence that is the case. We've seen none. We're 5 years in, the class is no longer ranking at the bottom for popularity like it used to, and complaints about it have decreased rather than increased, and people are asserting some balance issues and acting like that needs no support other than just asserting it? Nope. You have issues with the class, I get that. But you want to claim a balance issue with the class after this long? You will need a lot more than just making that claim.
And with all that data they released the revised UA ranger and they said what they said.
Popularity doesn't mean balance.
I claim what I want, that's all, I don't need anymore we can simply agree or disagree, didn't try to convince you but I needed to correct the fallacies about the need of playing experience, popularity, no one thinking is is unbalanced, etc.
Fair points all around. I just would have assumed by the statement “melee rangers are bad” you would have had better things to say about Ranged Rangers, instead of meaning that the entire class has problems do to some weak abilities.
Which, I don’t disagree with. I’ve found through old math I did a few years ago that Rangers are definitely built more around spreading damage around than they are single targets (Conjure Barrage and Conjure Volley are huge areas, as an example) which is somewhat against the grain of DnD “best practices” which prefers to focus damage on single targets. But, I like the imagery so the more limited damage output of Hunter Rangers doesn’t bother me too much. I do want better abilities from their 1st level stuff and from Primeval awareness of course, but I feel that is a separate issue from their damage output.
Exactly. For example I prefer to use a rogue as a ranger, at level 11 the Rogue could deal 1d8+5+6d6 damage, the ranger needs to hit 3 enemies or use a spell to be comparable. Beyond combat 1 extra skill, expertise, cunning action, reliable talent, etc, makes it a better all around ranger unless you want the spells to talk to animals and things like that.
For me the biggest problem are the lvl 11 power for hunters, the need of H. Mark to keep up, the beastmaster that doesn't work very well and the general ranger class powers which are very specific and a bit weak. In my opinion the revised ranger was a waste of time, the balance turned to the other side.
Hex is okay, but it's disgusting that Rangers have to use Hunter's Mark to be competitive? I don't follow. I've never heard Monks classified as the top-tier damage dealers, but sure, everyone knows that Barbarians, Fighters and Paladins do the most single-target damage. They generally also have to be in melee to do that damage, so good luck against a flying dragon or some other creature smart enough to not engage your melee combatants.
The Gloom Stalker's has a nice level 11 ability, it lets you take a 3rd attack if one of your two regular attacks misses. Is that as good as a straight 3rd attack every turn? Nobody else but the Fighter gets that, so this seems pretty powerful.
Vanish gives you a bonus action to Hide every round, which gives advantage on one attack per turn for free (unlike the Vengeance Paladin's ability, which is once per short rest). Is that as good as Reckless Attack? Not sure about you, but I'd rather be shooting my bow from as far away as possible than being in melee.
From my perspective, there's more to the game than just combat and characters that are highly optimized for combat only often struggle to be relevant in the other parts of the game. My party doesn't have a Barbarian, Fighter or Paladin and as a result my Gloom Stalker is easily the highest damage dealer on average thanks to Sharpshooter. We had a fight recently where I could stand about 300 feet back, and thanks to the fact the enemy had a light source, I had advantage on every single attack and was putting out 40+ damage per turn at level 7. The Ranger does not feel weak in combat to me. Does the Beast Master need some help? Undoubtedly. I also don't really care that a Barbarian, Fighter or Paladin with GWM could out-damage me.
All can attack at range, a melee ranger without spells compared to a monk or barbarian will only do 1d8 more to that flying dragon in the case he chose colossus slayer.
I don't know what is a gloomstalker as I never buy extra books, it looks good but doesn't change the other subclasses, in any case food for thought for homebrews and works differently than an extra attack, thanks for pointing it out, will try it substituting volley and whirlwind attack.
Hide is good but you need somewhere to hide and in combat a GM that lets you hide in front of an enemy unless you have surprise. Not our group.
The things out of combat are not very good, I can be a rogue with more skills, double proficiency on them, take a 10, hide, dash and disengage as a bonus action, don't need to specialize in melee or ranged combat, better damage unless you use hunter's mark and damage focused on one enemy which is usually better. Uncanny dodge and evasion sooner, if I go arcane trickster I have access to illusions and invisibility which are better options that spending one minute camouflaging yourself, etc.
