D&D 4E Rich Baker on his 4e Warlord

[med stud]

hong always makes sense ... to me.

I have always viewed hong as a professor in a clowns outfit. There is lots of intelligence behind the facade

 

[TerraDave]

Ok, lets step back, take a deep breath...

...and then get really worked up!

Half-elf: Have always multiclassed better. Its part of the game. And it carried them through 1st and 2nd ed (where they could take classes elves couldn't) but not 3rd (where everybody ignored or worked around the favoured class rules and humans ruled).

Multiclassing: Here be your WTF. They guy gets mondo warlord stuff (he is a 10th level warlord), and arcane spells. And he doesn't even have to be a half-elf to do it. Sound your alarms.

Stats: Who cares about SAD or MAD, this guy has both covered. Talk about power creep, this is power run.

Healing: This is being discussed elsewhere, but meelee capable plus healing plus buffing sounds a lot like...clerics...so they may as equally overpowered but without all the icky holy stuff.

The hammer: Yes, a nice team play benefit. But on top of everything else?

Oh well. At least I think they did manage to come up with a strong replacement for the bard.

 

[TheSeer]

Have you ever tried to play a Monk with 28 Point Buy?

It's a real PITA with classes like Paladin and Monk where you need good stats in 3-4 abilities.

Whereas a wizard can simply lean on his high Int or a rogue on his high Dex; all of their class abilities are keyed into that one ability.

Perhaps rather than trying to buy a 4e character with 28 points, the default needs to be higher now. What once used to be acceptable may now create sub-par characters. With a different paradigm you need to adapt your creation system, not stick to one that obviously doesn't work with the new rules. It's readily apparent that you can't apply 3.x rules to 4e and it only makes sense you'd have to raise the point buy.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

It is a super list, but in all of those instances there is just ONE ability that needs to be 12 in order to get a class bonus.

Doesn't seem like MAD to me, I'm afraid.

Exactly my thinking on this topic, especially since, in some cases, those abilities aren't even available until higher levels, no? Plenty of time to raise an 11 to 12 before then.

 

[Cadfan]

Maybe... It would be interesting. But other options exist :
* + x magic item (please, no !)
* different stat generation (random ?).
There is one "20" : that's a 18 + the 2 increase of level 4 and 8.

This is of course true. There's always the possibility that he just plain rolled those stats (plus the +2 from leveling up). It leaves him with a pretty sweet character, but I've seen characters that good in play before from people who rolled them honestly.

I like my crazy theory better though.

 

[Andor]

What classes exist in 3.5 where that actually happens?

I know that technically you could roll 18, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, and then you'd have class abilities that you couldn't use. But, trying to be reasonable, can you list a class where this occurs?

And just to keep things on a level footing, lets ignore multiclass characters. If you're playing a Monk/Shadowcaster, you get what you deserve when you can't get sufficient bonuses in all six stats.

This seems like such a tempest over nothing. The worst MAD in 3.5 is probably the Favored Soul types who eventually need a 19 in one mental stat and a high stat for saving throws in another, while also hopefully fighting in melee from time to time. So lets call that One. A favored soul who hopes to be a melee brawler has noticeable MAD because he needs all stats except Int.

Anyone else?

Or is the complaint not really that classes get abilities that they can't use due to MAD, but rather that classes get abilities but can't pimp out every single one of them simultaneously?

Worst MAD still has to be a Monk. He needs Str to hit and deal acceptable damage. He needs Con because otherwise he is a dead man for being in melee with low HP. He greatly desires Wis for both AC and to power his Stunning Fist, and some of the cooler Monk feats. He greatly desires Dex for AC, initiative and because it forms the base of most of a monks useful skills. Int isn't required, but if it's used as a dump stat he becomes less useful as he loses skills. Cha is the dump stat of choice mechanically, but who want to see Quasimodo in a loincloth?

It's possible to replace some of the stats with feat investment, granted, but Monks are feat starved at best, even with their bonus feats. Thus leading to the often heard cry of the Monk when he's the last member of the party standing "Feets don't fail me now."

 

[Merlin the Tuna]

This seems like such a tempest over nothing. The worst MAD in 3.5 is probably the Favored Soul types who eventually need a 19 in one mental stat and a high stat for saving throws in another, while also hopefully fighting in melee from time to time. So lets call that One. A favored soul who hopes to be a melee brawler has noticeable MAD because he needs all stats except Int.

I don't even think Favored Souls have it that bad -- they just have to pick whether they're going to be melee-centric and choose spells that don't involve saves (typically the ever-dominant Cleric self-buffs) or if they're going to be casting-centric and pull points away from physical stats. That doesn't strike me as crippling, it strikes me as good design -- he's one of few Divine casters that actually has to make choices about his advancement instead of just being told "Yeah, you get everything and a bag of chips."

 

[Cadfan]

Merlin the Tuna- I mostly agree. It does get a little tight though if you want to go the caster-centric route, because you'll want to spend your points from levelling up on your saving throws, but you need to increase your other stats to give yourself access to high level spells in the first place. The initial buy isn't a problem though. And the melee centric route isn't so bad.

 

[Rechan]

Well, lets compare, all of the following are class abilities that are based on “off-stats” for the class (and this is just a small list).

BTW. You forgot:

Archivist: Casts with Int, bonus spells for high Wis.

Dragon Shaman: Healing ability depends on Cha, like a Paladin's Lay On Hands.

Swashbuckler: Int for damage.

Knight: Many of their effects depend on Charisma.

 

[Rechan]

I think we all take hong's posts a hell of a lot more seriously than your consistently passive aggressive action…

Come on now - that was totally me being aggressive. There's no passiveness involved.