Richard Baker on Orcus and Deity Slaying

[Elsenrail]

So that means a lesser god would have the power of Orcus/Demogorgon. It sounds very nice. A great challenge for a player. (and fighting a greater power only in certain circumstances).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey all!

Very interesting.

Assuming Orcus is a solo monster, then Level 33 would be roughly equal to a Level 42 Standard monster (in terms of EXP). While Moradin, at 37th, would be akin to 46th level.

Interesting that he suggests a dynamic of Demogorgon + Orcus to deal with Moradin (a 4 level difference assuming all three are solo encounters). That presents each 'step-up' (Lesser Deity to Greater Deity in this case) as a jump of power akin to an Elite monster vs. a Standard monster. I was sort of thinking it would be more like Solo Monster vs. Standard Monster.

...oh and my money's on Demogorgon against Orcus.

 

[Li Shenron]

This was originally posted by Richard Baker in the The one and only "Ask the Realms authors/designers thread" 3 on Wednesday.

Maaaybe. We haven't statted up a deity for fightin' just yet. The toughest thing currently in the game is Orcus, who's around level 33 -- so he's a tough fight for level 30 characters. Of course, Orcus is about the toughest demon, and there are other demon princes who sit in the high 20's.

We've kicked around the idea that a greater god like Moradin could handle Orcus, but couldn't handle Orcus and Demogorgon together. Hence, the greater gods are cautious about picking fights with demons, because you never know if Demogorgon and Grazzt are hiding just around the corner, waiting to jump out and ambush you. That would suggest that Moradin (or any greater god, really) is maybe something like level 37 or 38. He's going to be out of the reach of even 30th-level PCs. That's why I said that taking on a god might involve a whole chain of epic quests to line things up just right--to find the weapon, the place, and the time where you catch a Bane or Shar at their weakest.

So, to sum up: Any high-epic party will likely do in an archdevil, exarch, or demon prince somewhere in their last four or five levels of adventuring, possibly even two or three if the DM sets up the adventures that way. But taking out a greater power is probably something you only do once, and even then, you only do it if the DM decides to make it the theme of the last big adventure your characters have as mortal heroes. It's hardly working your way through Deities & Demigods in alphabetical order.

Interesting explanation about epic opponents isn't it?

That seems a very reasonable approach to me. The gamers will certainly screw it up.

 

[Saishu_Heiki]

That seems a very reasonable approach to me. The gamers will certainly screw it up.

Games work perfectly until people get involved

Hmm.... that applies to my network as well. There is never a failure until a user gets involved. If I eliminate the users, then I eliminate the point of failure. Brilliant!

 

[dm4hire]

Uhh... the Lady of Pain never acted through proxies, unless you count those rare occasions when she turned up with a dabus beside her doing her talking to be "acting through proxies".

Thanks, I couldn't remember the race's name, and since I was up at 4am due to my cold I am surprised I remembered anything. The Dabus where just as mysterious and where a great way to tick your players off with their pictograph dialog by having them interpret what they were saying when they first met them. After that I usually just said what they had to say.

I love that they are at least keeping the concept of killing a god as a possibility, making it into a quest makes it even more interesting. A quest like that would be very epic in performing as well as telling, along the lines of the Odyssey, having to search for various things or complete given tasks before being able to fight the god in question. The place could be some battlefield where the god once stood, summoned after the hero finds a horn blown in that battle to challenge him, and then the hero has to fight with a sword forged by the titans. Anything else would be extra garnish to make it more interesting. Very epic indeed.

 

[hexgrid]

I'm guessing that something like the Epic Level Handbook will come along in a year or so.

I hope not. Or at least, I hope the point of it isn't to add non-ending level advancement like the 3e version did. Doing this really screws with the meta-setting if you've already established the most powerful beings in the multiverse as being in the 30's, level wise.

 

[EATherrian]

I like the idea of fighting Gods, but I'll still stick to the copout that these are just their avatars. To truly destroy a God would never involve direct combat for me, it would be a wild ride of a campaign though I bet.

Oh, and everyone knows that Dagon is the real power of the demons.

 

[happyelf]

Wow, if the toughest dwarf god is only 38, I'd hate to run into the Lady of Pain.

Anyone who can keep gods in check has got to be at the top of the food chain. I'd say she'd be at least lvl 40 if not 45 then, maybe even 50!! I remember when they first introduced her they said they'd never stat her out as they wanted her to give that awe of absolute power, so powerful no one could fathom how powerful she is.

I would assume she falls under the 'right place at the right time' clause they mentioned. Any god stupid enough to step into sigil is in trouble, but I doubt she could exert much power elsewhere.

 

[Dausuul]

What I wonder is how they plan to handle the problem I always had with gods. It's essentially the same problem one has running a campaign in the Forgotten Realms--namely, if the PCs are on a quest to stop Evil from overrunning the world (or significant portion thereof), how come all these super-powerful good-aligned NPCs don't come and fix the problem, instead of relying on a mismatched handful of adventurers to get the job done?

A common solution to this problem is one of those nonintervention deals where the gods have an agreement not to interfere in the mortal world lest it start an apocalyptic war... but those always make the gods feel a little wussy to me, and if the stakes get high enough it stops being credible (that is, if the lords of the Abyss are about to crack the world like an egg, direct divine intervention would seem to be justified regardless of the risks).

Maybe the gods are physically unable to manifest directly in the material plane? Then if you want to kill one, you have to go to the Astral Sea and find his/her divine dominion.

 

[franzel]

I hope not. Or at least, I hope the point of it isn't to add non-ending level advancement like the 3e version did. Doing this really screws with the meta-setting if you've already established the most powerful beings in the multiverse as being in the 30's, level wise.

And not doing it screws with campaigns where you already have 30th level+ characters.

I have been saying to my gaming group for a while that 4e has a very 2e feel about it so far, including a hard cap at 30th level. We got around that in '97 by introducing "salient" powers (based conceptually off the spelljammer archlich) that you could advance by spending earned experience points once you stopped leveling. Looks like we'll have to go back to that idea just to squeeze our ~50th level party back into a 30th level box.