D&D 5E RIP alignment

[UngeheuerLich]

Yes and? Symbols, words, phrases, ANYTHING, can and will be or has been, coopted by racists. So, do we simply sigh and move on dropping one more thing because 'oh thats racist now'.?



Again, anything can be twisted to racism, do we drop anything that could be seen as, claimed as, or actually may be, racist?

Aligmment was the excuse to go out slaughtering orcs on sight...

I hope alignment is still there somewhere. The planes, fiends and angels etcs might have an alignment. Actually this is how 5e makes ise of it in the rule. A paladin can't go around detecting alignment from anyone. It is there to single out nonhumanoid beings.

So does alignment belong into a stat block? Not really, because the stat block should be universal. An individual might not be evil just because they uses a stat block that has evil written in there.

The society might have a chaotic evil structure. An individual might act according to that general trend or might defy it.
A very nice representation can be found in star trek discovery. How does someone from an evil society behave if you show them a different way.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Like, again, I'd be more open to the arguments of "it's a tool" if people actually responded to the argument that it's not a good tool and that there are better ways of getting those ideas across instead of keeping it around.

No, because it, like the swastika, and now the ok symbol has been twisted to racism?

In certain contexts, it's started to be? I mean, the Celtic Cross can also be an unassuming symbol, but it's transformed to have another meaning as racist groups have adopted it.

Does that mean it always has that meaning? No. But at the same time, the alternative is still there.

Like, again I think we are on the same page on a bunch of this. I just dont think that Alignment is racist, and I think any argument that it is seen as such is a weak one.

We're not on the same page because you keep strawmanning the argument: people aren't saying that it's inherently racist, people are saying that the way it's used currently can sometimes fuel racist tropes. That's very different, but you keep trying to avoid it because I think it makes your argument much more difficult.

 

[Charlaquin]

It helps me understand them in relation to one another in the moral and ethical system that Gygax laid out.

Frankly, who cares about the system Gygax laid out? The moral and ethical dispositions of the planes and their inhabitants, as well as their relationships with one another work perfectly fine and exactly as-written without the limiting framework of that system.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Like, again I think we are on the same page on a bunch of this. I just dont think that Alignment is racist, and I think any argument that it is seen as such is a weak one.

It's not that it's inherently racist, it's something that's highly conducive to it.

Being able to label whole peoples as inherently evil or wrong or bad by way of their 'nature' is page one of the racisming handbook. As is making caricatures of those peoples and then claiming those caricatures are 'just fiction'.

Othering labels are step one to justifying treating people badly for your own group's benefit.

 

[Hatmatter]

Frankly, who cares about the system Gygax laid out? The moral and ethical dispositions of the planes and their inhabitants, as well as their relationships with one another work perfectly fine and exactly as-written without the limiting framework of that system.

That is difficult for me to answer other than, I care. The alignment system was a carry over from much of the pulp fiction that influenced Gygax and it was a feature of the game I fell in love with decades ago. I like the game so I like its features.

 

[Charlaquin]

Re: the misappropriation and potential rehabilitation of symbols: Might Pepe be a more relevant example here? Honestly asking because I seem to have a hard time gauging the relevance of a lot of internet media to this community and it’s gotten folks mad at me before.

 

[Oofta]

The whole "Alignment is a tool for getting something across quick" doesn't work if you've managed to be on a D&D messageboard for more than a day. Alignment is like the opposite of a shared language; it's really more of a Rorschach test, where everyone has a different idea of what each term means.

Funny thing is, everyone I've ever discussed this with in person had a close-enough definition of alignment that it was useful.

It's only because of message boards that I would ever know anyone has an issue with it. It's not a hard concept for any real person I've ever discussed it with.

 

[Justice and Rule]

That is difficult for me to answer other than, I care. The alignment system was a carry over from much of the pulp fiction that influenced Gygax and it was a feature of the game I fell in love with decades ago. I like the game so I like its features.

Sure, but sometimes features just age out. THAC0 is a good example.

 

[Vaalingrade]

It helps me understand them in relation to one another in the moral and ethical system that Gygax laid out.

Except here's the thing... he didn't.

He copied the core cosmic conflict from Moorecook where Law and chaos are opposing factions and tessellated that to include Good and Evil.

It was only later that people started stapling on an ethical system.

 

[Charlaquin]

That is difficult for me to answer other than, I care. The alignment system was a carry over from much of the pulp fiction that influenced Gygax and it was a feature of the game I fell in love with decades ago. I like the game so I like its features.

Right, sure, and you’re welcome to continue to carry that over if you like. But it isn’t necessary for the great wheel cosmology to be cogent or coherent. You could remove alignment and change nothing about the great wheel, and it would work just as well.