D&D 5E RIP alignment

[Justice and Rule]

This is it right here. There isnt a thing on this planet that could not be misconstrued as racist at this point, or taken and made as such by actual racists. I'm reminded of the 'OK' sign as an example of this stupidity.

I mean, at the same time when used in certain contexts, that naughty word actually means something. It's like Nordic tattoos: while they could be harmless, it's dumb not to realize that those symbols have meanings in certain communities and that they can be symbols of a racist movement.

Alignment is not inherently flawed. The argument that it is racist, is.

I mean, are a lot of people saying it's inherently racist, or are they saying that how it's been used fuels racist tropes? Because the former comes off as a strawman, the latter is actually correct.

I see alignment as another tool to be used - a dial that can be turned up, turned down, or turned sideways, as a DM and the players like. It's a handy shorthand for new DMs to get a handle on playing monsters and NPCs. Some assume that all new DMs will be offended by alignments, but I don't know if that's the case. People all learn differently, and what works for one new DM might not work for another.

It seems like the ship has sailed, but it's too bad they did not use 3.x's alignment entries like "Usually Neutral Evil" to directly imply the possibility of other alignments for a creature. Or use "Any Alignment" for free-willed humanoids and make it very clear for certain species.

The problem is that alignment is a terrible tool for that. Those terms are vague and often have varying meanings depending on who you are talking to. Like, is there anything that alignment does that a short line that says "Morality for sale to the highest bidder" doesn't? Because I get a lot more out of the latter than the former.

 

[Justice and Rule]

The whole "Alignment is a tool for getting something across quick" doesn't work if you've managed to be on a D&D messageboard for more than a day. Alignment is like the opposite of a shared language; it's really more of a Rorschach test, where everyone has a different idea of what each term means.

 

[Scribe]

I mean, at the same time when used in certain contexts, that naughty word actually means something. It's like Nordic tattoos: while they could be harmless, it's dumb not to realize that those symbols have meanings in certain communities and that they can be symbols of a racist movement.

Yes and? Symbols, words, phrases, ANYTHING, can and will be or has been, coopted by racists. So, do we simply sigh and move on dropping one more thing because 'oh thats racist now'.?

I mean, are a lot of people saying it's inherently racist, or are they saying that how it's been used fuels racist tropes? Because the former comes off as a strawman, the latter is actually correct.

Again, anything can be twisted to racism, do we drop anything that could be seen as, claimed as, or actually may be, racist?

 

[Justice and Rule]

Yes and? Symbols, words, phrases, ANYTHING, can and will be or has been, coopted by racists. So, do we simply sigh and move on dropping one more thing because 'oh thats racist now'.?

I mean, are you the kind of guy who goes "Oh, that's just the Roman salute"?

When things gain traction and actually get used consistently by racists, then it does take on that meaning. That doesn't mean that it's always racist, but when someone with those leanings flashes it, then it does. The SPLC's look at it is fairly apt:

A common hand gesture that a 4chan trolling campaign claimed in 2017 had been appropriated as a symbol meaning "white power." Used by many on the right--not just extremists--for the purpose of trolling liberals, the symbol eventually came to be used by actual white supremacists as well. Caution must be used in evaluating instances of this symbol's use.

Just like the alignment system. Not inherently racist, but when used in certain ways, it can fuel certain racist ideas. So not a great example for you.

Again, anything can be twisted to racism, do we drop anything that could be seen as, claimed as, or actually may be, racist?

When it keeps getting used that way, maybe we reevaluate using it again? Like, if it keeps getting you into trouble with people and you already aren't really using it, why keep it around? Again, seems like an ideal thing to just put in the DMG as a variant. You can even change the "Detect/Protect against Good/Evil" spells for it.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Yes and? Symbols, words, phrases, ANYTHING, can and will be or has been, coopted by racists. So, do we simply sigh and move on dropping one more thing because 'oh thats racist now'.?

No one ever believes those people who wear swatikas and claim they're 'reclaiming' the symbol or doing it ironically.

For good reason.

 

[Scribe]

I mean, are you the kind of guy who goes "Oh, that's just the Roman salute"?

No, because it, like the swastika, and now the ok symbol has been twisted to racism?

 

[Hatmatter]

Just go back to the actually useful 4E versions instead of the silly alignment-based cosmology.

Ouch. I am sorry you find it silly. But, then again, as a basement-dwelling role-player who posts on Enworld, it is not the first time I have endured my interests as being labeled such.

 

[Charlaquin]

Yeah; that they're generally nasty and to be avoided if-when possible.

That’s generally not the perception anymore, actually.

I mean, the Harry Potter world does a fine take on Goblins but were I running a HP game I'd never allow one as a PC.

I guess if by “fine” you mean “kinda anti-Semitic”

And that's the core of the problem, starting with 3e and carrying on since: the idiocy of allowing monsters* as PCs being baked into the core rules, and the inevitable later fallout when those monsters aren't monsters any more.

* - yes, Drow, Tieflings and Dragonborn are monsters in my view; never mind Orcs, Goblins, etc.

You may consider it idiocy, but it’s the reality we’re in.

That's fair. Then again, any new player is going to have to accept whatever houserules the DM has surrounding this sort of thing anyway.

It's new DMs for whom this all makes a difference.

Sure.

 

[Hatmatter]

Does it, though? The philosophical dispositions of the outer planes are pretty well-described, with or without a two-word shorthand. We know how demons behave in contrast to devils, in contrast to daemons, etc. Is the alignment label truly necessary for that cosmic system to function and make sense? I don’t think it is, personally.

It helps me understand them in relation to one another in the moral and ethical system that Gygax laid out.

 

[Scribe]

When it keeps getting used that way, maybe we reevaluate using it again? Like, if it keeps getting you into trouble with people and you already aren't really using it, why keep it around? Again, seems like an ideal thing to just put in the DMG as a variant. You can even change the "Detect/Protect against Good/Evil" spells for it.

Like, again I think we are on the same page on a bunch of this. I just dont think that Alignment is racist, and I think any argument that it is seen as such is a weak one.