D&D (2024) Rogue's Been in an Awkward Place, And This Survey Might Be Our Last Chance to Let WotC Know.

[tetrasodium]

Oh come on.

Arguing a class can't get a class feature because there's an item completely ignores
a) other classes can use that item too
b) you can never assume you're going to get any specific item (in pen and paper 5E), that's just videogame thinking
c) handing out a melee item but not a ranged version is a kind of "stealth balancing" I disapprove of. A player should not have to know there exists a certain desirable item but only in some forms, in order to assess their build choices.

Why are you reflexively against more sneak dice?

Why are you framing this as a "need" that you get to question?

The rogue has a class feature. This class feature has absolutely no boosters. This is highly curious, especially since it is abundantly clear it isn't a balance issue.

What's the frakkin deal with WotC being so dead set against higher sneak damage that they don't even think about it? Is it natural or obvious? No! There's no reason for this that I can think of.

Instead the obvious outcome would have been for there to be a sprinkling of items or abilities or spells that enhance sneak attack damage just as there is for about every other conceivable dimension of the game.

Why does not a pair of ear flappers that increases the size of your sneak dice from d6s to d8s exist? A spell that grants one additional sneak die. A subclass that increase the number of sneak dice by your proficiency bonus, maybe.

Something. Anything.

You didn't answer my question, I'll try to rephrase it because it's an important one as noted in 228 how rogues already have the ability to add +dice using magic items like I mentioned & linked.

Back in prior editions there was a higher bar to getting off a sneak attack were a lot more nuanced damage types that sometimes really mattered, most are pretty self expiatory

• The usual B/P/S
• Various elements
• the usual B/P/S but from weapons made from a specific material that targets certain creature defenses or has an alignment/particular +value needed by a creature defense.
• Alignment based
• Precision (sneak attack & maybe a couple others dealt this type of damage)
• untyped
• others?

I'm not going to detail all of those but precision damage worked to provide full damage against nearly every monster except monsters that were immune to crits (ie constructs, undead, oozes, etc). As a result there was a meaningful difference between +precision dice & +some other type of dice.

All of that is no longer true in 5e so...

• Sneak attack has such low bar that it's almost guaranteed now so there is no reason to have magic items that lower the bar there.
• There can't be magic items that expand what the user can damage like was possible with precision dice because the only exceptions are probably just highly specific monsters (none I can think of) that are somehow melee immune or whatever.
• Damage types have had their value as a meaningful distinction muddled & watered down to the point of making it a pointless distinction for +sneak dice over +element dice or whatever

After all of that it looks very much like the only benefit of items that add sneak dice specifically seems to be that they would stack with elemental weapons & guarantee the party rogue is always the most deserving PC for such an item no matter what . That's probably not a good or even reasonable need to justify such a magic item... Can you give a good reason why such an item is needed mechanically or should even exist?

 

[CapnZapp]

To be fair, it’s an oddly specific ask. Not “ways to increase my rogue’s damage,” but “ways to improve sneak attack specifically.” Personally, it has never even occurred to me that this might be an issue.

You and WotC both. Mystifying.

 

[CapnZapp]

You didn't answer my question, I'll try to rephrase it because it's an important one as noted in 228 how rogues already have the ability to add +dice using magic items like I mentioned & linked.

Back in prior editions there was a higher bar to getting off a sneak attack were a lot more nuanced damage types that sometimes really mattered, most are pretty self expiatory

• The usual B/P/S
• Various elements
• the usual B/P/S but from weapons made from a specific material that targets certain creature defenses or has an alignment/particular +value needed by a creature defense.
• Alignment based
• Precision (sneak attack & maybe a couple others dealt this type of damage)
• untyped
• others?

I'm not going to detail all of those but precision damage worked to provide full damage against nearly every monster except monsters that were immune to crits (ie constructs, undead, oozes, etc). As a result there was a meaningful difference between +precision dice & +some other type of dice.

All of that is no longer true in 5e so...

• Sneak attack has such low bar that it's almost guaranteed now so there is no reason to have magic items that lower the bar there.
• There can't be magic items that expand what the user can damage like was possible with precision dice because the only exceptions are probably just highly specific monsters (none I can think of) that are somehow melee immune or whatever.
• Damage types have had their value as a meaningful distinction muddled & watered down to the point of making it a pointless distinction for +sneak dice over +element dice or whatever

After all of that it looks very much like the only benefit of items that add sneak dice specifically seems to be that they would stack with elemental weapons & guarantee the party rogue is always the most deserving PC for such an item no matter what . That's probably not a good or even reasonable need to justify such a magic item... Can you give a good reason why such an item is needed mechanically or should even exist?

Why are you making an effort to undermine the request?

Sneak attack damage is one out of a thousand variables in this game. But probably 99% of those other variables can be extended or improved somehow.

And that's even before we get into the whole deal with sneak damage not being particularly impressive. The rogue has never been seen as a particularly lethal combatant.

I'm not going to play your game. Instead you present your arguments why it would break the game if the rogue got increased sneak damage.

For comparison: even if the core rogue straight up doubled the sneak damage (to one die every level) it would probably break nothing, given "once a round" and thinking primarily of a vanilla game featuring only core 2014 PHB features.

(And I'm not actually suggesting that. I'm not thinking of ways to gain +2d6 sneak damage that you could take already at level one, for instance.)

Being able to get better at your core class abilities is natural. It is fun. But no, there are no items, no feats, no class choices, no spells, nothing at all, that targets the Sneak Attack class feature either specifically or indirectly.

This might suggest changing it even slightly would break the game. But that just isn't the case.

 

[CapnZapp]

Because the rogue very consistently scores as satisfied or better, and also is played by people often.

That's it. That's the answer. People like the rogue. Why fix what isn't broken?

You do know you're repeating yourself?

Just because people enjoy other things about a class has never been a good argument for ignoring the design space of this thing.

Instead, this is an argument perfectly suited to be brandished when you yourself dislike a proposed change.... but conveniently ignored when you like some other change.

 

[CapnZapp]

I don't know about you, but my Arcane Trickster with Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade does great and is definitely melee focused. He CAN shoot a crossbow when the situation calls for it, but he's most often in melee because he does more damage that way, and he's only going to pull off a second set of sneak attack damage from an opportunity attack from melee as well. Which just happened last night as a fear effect hit a foe and they fled, triggering an opportunity attack with sneak attack dice and killing that foe.

Cool story bro.

Now back to your top 10 list of why sneak damage cannot possibly be targeted by improvements, while nearly everything else in the game can be helped one way or another.

Go.

 

[tetrasodium]

Why are you making an effort to undermine the request?

Sneak attack damage is one out of a thousand variables in this game. But probably 99% of those other variables can be extended or improved somehow.

And that's even before we get into the whole deal with sneak damage not being particularly impressive. The rogue has never been seen as a particularly lethal combatant.

I'm not going to play your game. Instead you present your arguments why it would break the game if the rogue got increased sneak damage.

For comparison: even if the core rogue straight up doubled the sneak damage (to one die every level) it would probably break nothing, given "once a round" and thinking primarily of a vanilla game featuring only core 2014 PHB features.

(And I'm not actually suggesting that. I'm not thinking of ways to gain +2d6 sneak damage that you could take already at level one, for instance.)

Being able to get better at your core class abilities is natural. It is fun. But no, there are no items, no feats, no class choices, no spells, nothing at all, that targets the Sneak Attack class feature either specifically or indirectly.

This might suggest changing it even slightly would break the game. But that just isn't the case.

So after being asked why it's needed & having the question explained in detail, should this be taken as tacit admission that there is no need for such an item & no reason for it to exist other than ones that carry less than healthy gameplay baggage?

 

[CapnZapp]

I’m finding my rogue pretty enduring in combat.

There are also enduring barbarians or warlocks, rangers and paladins. Still, they get to improve their core class features.

It's not that the rogue sneak damage was so close to over the top at one d6 every other level (we're talking a measly +1.75 dmg per level here) that it must be considered maxxed out already at the get go.

 

[CapnZapp]

To be fair, it’s an oddly specific ask.

Like there aren't already extremely specific features and items for many other class features?

What's so extremely specific about this particular ask that makes you call it odd?

 

[CapnZapp]

So after being asked why it's needed & having the question explained in detail, should this be taken as tacit admission that there is no need for such an item & no reason for it to exist other than ones that carry less than healthy gameplay baggage?

Again the insinuation increased sneak damage is less than healthy.

Please explain to me what would break if there was a rogue subclass that just got bonus sneak dice.

Why would a +1 tablespoon of awkwardness ruin your game if it provided its magic bonus also to sneak attacks and to sneak damage? Why can't there be a feat boosting sneak attacks?

Why can't there be a spell improving sneak attacks? Maybe something like Hex or Hunter's Mark but where you got a bit extra damage in return for the spell only boosting sneak damage, not all damage?

I honestly have no idea.

Why do you fight so hard avoiding having to admit none of the above would come even close to breaking the class or the game?

Why not just simply agree it is inexplicable how WotC has maintained the impressive discipline to never, not once, release an effect that increases sneak damage?

Still, I'm completely stumped.

 

[Charlaquin]

Like there aren't already extremely specific features and items for many other class features?

What's so extremely specific about this particular ask that makes you call it odd?

I’m not saying a feature that improves sneak attack would be oddly specific, I’m saying that asking for a feature to improve sneak attack damage specifically, as opposed to something to increase a rogue character’s damage output generally, is odd. Why is it so important to you that your rogue’s damage output be increased via sneak attack rather than some other means?