D&D (2024) Rogue's Been in an Awkward Place, And This Survey Might Be Our Last Chance to Let WotC Know.

[UngeheuerLich]

yes, but if you give +1 per die or increase d6 to d8, it's different on crit damage.
Personally, I like d6+1 more than d8 if crit multiplies all damage.

He did not say that at all. Of course it is different on a crit. But hit chances were also not figured in.

So it is basicall 1 more damage on average. +0 if all attacks miss. +2 if you crit at least once.
For average fores that +0 and +2 averages to about +1*, so it basically is +1 per sneak attack die.

Asumming 10+ to hit, chance to miss on 2 attacks, one with advantage is: 0.45^3 ~= 9%.

Chance to crit with the first attack (with advantage) is 1-0.95^2 = 0.975%

I only calculated the attack with advantage to be a crit, because usually you use sneak attack on the first hit, because you don't know, if you will hit or miss on the second attack. I try to calculate everything soon, but I have no time to think about it right now.

 

[tetrasodium]

I visited the site again but can honestly see no trace of any "officialness". I'll have to take your word for it.

Even then, I don't see why you would link to something like a Truedeath Crystal...?

The Deathstrike Bracers theoretically boosts sneak attacks, but the amount of monsters immune to sneak damage must be minuscule. Not exactly an item that fixes an entire class ability, no? (Again assuming you're still discussing 5E - in 3E it was quite common to encounter monsters immune to sneak damage; there these bracers would definitely have a value.)


I can understand that, since every rogue would presumable be able to use this items.

So class feautures it is (since you would presumably have to choose between "moar" damage and those "too good" features you're talking about)

Magic item compendium had a wide array of sneak attack impacting magic items, the ones I listed earlier were only three of them. The 5e rogue does not need such items because nearly all of the many sneak attack impacting items were rolled into the base class as always on & unlimited use. There were so many in fact that I'm not even going to try counting them

Not sure what "those" refers to here.

There's definitely room design and balance wise for more sneak damage if we're still discussing the 5E14 Rogue. I could easily see a whole subclass dedicated to this focus.

You should be quite sure when Just a couple minutes prior to expressing that you literally made a post talking about the three examples I pulled & linked to details of. There is no room for the kind of magic items that you are calling for because none was left in the base class and wotc needs to design classes with more responsibility than Gabe is here

 

[Mistwell]

By an average of 10 * chance to hit at least once at level 19.
Or at lower levels about by 1 per 2 levels round up * chance to hit at least once.

With steady aim and a nick weapon, your chances to hit at least once is probably higher than 90%.

In treantmonk's analysis, which was 13th level, I think it was 97%. Rogue's damage was super consistent, with the only burst being turn 1 with an assassin rogue, and the only real question being whether you poisoned your foe (which has ramifications for the battle, but which are not in the calculations).

 

[CapnZapp]

Magic item compendium had a wide array of sneak attack impacting magic items, the ones I listed earlier were only three of them. The 5e rogue does not need such items because nearly all of the many sneak attack impacting items were rolled into the base class as always on & unlimited use. There were so many in fact that I'm not even going to try counting them

You've lost me here.

Name any way to increase sneak damage to more than 1 die every other level. Say you're a level 11 rogue. Per the PHB, you deal 6d6 sneak damage. What items or effects or abilities can you use to increase this to 14d6 or 9d6 or even 7d6 sneak damage, assuming core 5th Edition?

And then, regardless if you find any such ways: why did you have to use the word "need". I strongly disagree with the statement "The 5e rogue does not need such items". Please don't talk for all of us.

The 5E14 rogue definitely could benefit from ways to increase sneak damage, especially if this came at the expense of the versatility and skillmonkeyism of the class.

 

[tetrasodium]

You've lost me here.

Name any way to increase sneak damage to more than 1 die every other level. Say you're a level 11 rogue. Per the PHB, you deal 6d6 sneak damage. What items or effects or abilities can you use to increase this to 14d6 or 9d6 or even 7d6 sneak damage, assuming core 5th Edition?

And then, regardless if you find any such ways: why did you have to use the word "need". I strongly disagree with the statement "The 5e rogue does not need such items". Please don't talk for all of us.

The 5E14 rogue definitely could benefit from ways to increase sneak damage, especially if this came at the expense of the versatility and skillmonkeyism of the class.

Why would a rogue "need" +sneak attack dice specifically when the rogue could use things like this, this, this, this, some of these & maybe this to get extra dice when making any of their attacks? The entire premise just goes back to the same irksome ""GMGMGM you've gotta give bob his bracers of defense or you aren't being fair to his tank since he can't wear armor" due to how 5e removed all of the designspace that items impacting sneak attack specifically could impact by expanding the base class

 

[CapnZapp]

Why would a rogue "need" +sneak attack dice specifically when the rogue could use things like

Oh come on.

Arguing a class can't get a class feature because there's an item completely ignores
a) other classes can use that item too
b) you can never assume you're going to get any specific item (in pen and paper 5E), that's just videogame thinking
c) handing out a melee item but not a ranged version is a kind of "stealth balancing" I disapprove of. A player should not have to know there exists a certain desirable item but only in some forms, in order to assess their build choices.

Why are you reflexively against more sneak dice?

Why are you framing this as a "need" that you get to question?

The rogue has a class feature. This class feature has absolutely no boosters. This is highly curious, especially since it is abundantly clear it isn't a balance issue.

What's the frakkin deal with WotC being so dead set against higher sneak damage that they don't even think about it? Is it natural or obvious? No! There's no reason for this that I can think of.

Instead the obvious outcome would have been for there to be a sprinkling of items or abilities or spells that enhance sneak attack damage just as there is for about every other conceivable dimension of the game.

Why does not a pair of ear flappers that increases the size of your sneak dice from d6s to d8s exist? A spell that grants one additional sneak die. A subclass that increase the number of sneak dice by your proficiency bonus, maybe.

Something. Anything.

 

[TheSword]

I’m finding my rogue pretty enduring in combat. The combination of uncanny dodge, evasion, AC19, a shield spell once per day when I’m in real trouble, evasion protecting against the Dex saves, and being highly mobile means she’s pretty hard wearing I find.

 

[Charlaquin]

Oh come on.

Arguing a class can't get a class feature because there's an item completely ignores
a) other classes can use that item too
b) you can never assume you're going to get any specific item (in pen and paper 5E), that's just videogame thinking
c) handing out a melee item but not a ranged version is a kind of "stealth balancing" I disapprove of. A player should not have to know there exists a certain desirable item but only in some forms, in order to assess their build choices.

Why are you reflexively against more sneak dice?

Why are you framing this as a "need" that you get to question?

The rogue has a class feature. This class feature has absolutely no boosters. This is highly curious, especially since it is abundantly clear it isn't a balance issue.

What's the frakkin deal with WotC being so dead set against higher sneak damage that they don't even think about it? Is it natural or obvious? No! There's no reason for this that I can think of.

Instead the obvious outcome would have been for there to be a sprinkling of items or abilities or spells that enhance sneak attack damage just as there is for about every other conceivable dimension of the game.

Why does not a pair of ear flappers that increases the size of your sneak dice from d6s to d8s exist? A spell that grants one additional sneak die. A subclass that increase the number of sneak dice by your proficiency bonus, maybe.

Something. Anything.

To be fair, it’s an oddly specific ask. Not “ways to increase my rogue’s damage,” but “ways to improve sneak attack specifically.” Personally, it has never even occurred to me that this might be an issue. Sneak Attack does good damage already, and there are plenty of ways to improve a rogue’s damage output, so I’ve never really felt the need to seek out sneak attack enhancers. I suspect the designers likewise haven’t been specifically avoiding creating such options, but rather haven’t specifically set out to do so. I also doubt they’d make like a feat for that purpose, since such a feat would only be useful to rogues. They seem ok with designing magic items that are only useful for a specific class though, so I could see that being a thing. But again, I don’t think the lack of such an item is particularly glaring. I never even thought about it.

 

[Mistwell]

5E14 has absolutely zero items or class features that increase sneak damage. Despite this very clearly being very far from game-breaking; the 5e14 rogue was never in contention for "most game-breaking efficient killer" or even close. Why is this particular build dimension so very strictly throttled when almost no other build dimension are?

There's a rule that limits attribute scores to 20. Until you can exceed it.
There's a rule that limits attunement slots to three. Until you can exceed it.
And so on and so on.

But gaining more sneak attack dice? Or increasing the size of them? Or even getting a reliable internal way of self-generating your second sneak attack in a turn* (without relying on monsters fleeing or your wizard casting Haste)?
*) I would much prefer the game design to focus on one single attack to differentiate the Rogue from Fighters and other classes.

Absolute total deadening silence from official sources.

Why is that?

Because the rogue very consistently scores as satisfied or better, and also is played by people often.

That's it. That's the answer. People like the rogue. Why fix what isn't broken?

 

[Mistwell]

You do realize that this makes building a melee rogue a hopeless choice.

(The melee rogue should have available choices to increase sneak damage that can't be used at range)

I don't know about you, but my Arcane Trickster with Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade does great and is definitely melee focused. He CAN shoot a crossbow when the situation calls for it, but he's most often in melee because he does more damage that way, and he's only going to pull off a second set of sneak attack damage from an opportunity attack from melee as well. Which just happened last night as a fear effect hit a foe and they fled, triggering an opportunity attack with sneak attack dice and killing that foe.