D&D (2024) Rules that annoy you

mamba

Legend
Except it doesn't and never have solved the issue of casters being owerpowered.
eh, it makes them less overpowered, so a step in the right direction

It in no way solves the fact casters can do much more than martials. hell, it enforces it because if you force caster to prepare all the utility spells, they probably are going to outshine rogue AND fighter at the same time.
not sure I follow, by limiting their access to utility spells they somehow get more of them? They already can cast all of them as a ritual, how does requiring a spell slot give them easier access?

You want to sacrifice all quality of life updates like rituals and cantrips for the sake of adding targetted boredroom, bookeeping and busywork.
because having some more spells using slots causes all of this and we would not basically have the exact same bookkeeping and busywork without it… also, I said nothing about cantrips

Game balance will not be solved by making the game annoying to play.
no it won’t, I’d argue this is also not the result of these changes, and in addition these would not be the only changes

Make martials more powerful, nerf casters considerably and things are good as far as I am concerned. No one said you have to like or approve it
 

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Daztur

Hero
And for the price of flavor fail that causes a powerful archmage to suddenly forget basic utility spells and caster players SITTING ON THER ASSES NOT DOING ANYTHING IN COMBAT because they had to put all these utility spells into their spell slots.
Feature not bug, glorious glorious feature.

Fighters should be the best class in a straight-up fight. Wizards should be cheating bastards who figure out clever ways to use their spells to get an edge and set things up. Sledgehammer vs. Swiss army knife.
 

Leatherhead

Possibly a Idiot.
I'm going to go with the loading property, and how it makes it mechanically impossible to use a shield and a sling at the same time.

Also the jumping rules, which are needlessly convoluted and restricted.

And the spellcasting component rules, where you have to drop your magic staff to cast a spell if the spell has somatic components but not material ones.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Except it doesn't and never have solved the issue of casters being owerpowered. It in no way solves the fact casters can do much more than martials.
Well, yes it does; in that while casters can do more than martials they can only do those things a strictly-limited number of times per day, meanwhile the martial just keeps on keepin' on.

It's when those per-day limits are taken off casters (rituals and cantrips, I'm looking right at you as I say this) they get out of hand in a hurry.
hell, it enforces it because if you force caster to prepare all the utility spells, they probably are going to outshine rogue AND fighter at the same time.
Only until their spells run out, at which point they'll in turn get outshone big time.
You want to sacrifice all quality of life updates like rituals and cantrips for the sake of adding targetted boredroom, bookeeping and busywork. Game balance will not be solved by making the game annoying to play.
Rituals and cantrips are "quality of life updates"? How do you arrive at this conclusion?

Or is it that you just prefer overpowered casters?
 


EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Well, one aspect of the game is and always has been resource management; and I think it does the whole thing a disservice to ignore this aspect completely even while handwaving a few of the more tedious bits.
I love well-made resource management. That's actually something I've been championing in my main MMO of choice, Final Fantasy XIV. They've stripped out too much resource management from the game's jobs, though the new Pictomancer is a huge breath of fresh air on that front and gives me hope that things will get better.

My problem is that a lot of the systems people propose for resource-management are...well, frankly, bad. Most rules for "carrying capacity" are boring, fiddly, and exclusively there to punish (often minor) failure, with no possibility of rewarding success. Monitoring rations can be fun in the limited context of something like Dark Sun or a specifically survival-focused game, but outside that context it quickly becomes a boring chore.

In real life, failing to do stuff like this (in game terms) would mean you "suffer a debuff/condition." Eat too much or too little, or at the wrong times, or the same thing too often, or the wrong kinds of things, and you'll suffer various conditions. Fail to wash, or use the bathroom, or sleep, etc., etc. Yet I see no effort to add bathroom-use or varied-diet rules, because they wouldn't be interesting. Carrying capacity is only a concern because Gygax had such a love affair with heisting as a core design principle. Even the inventory-tetris of several RPGs is not particularly interesting or engaging. I've seen small efforts at trying to make carrying/logistics/etc. stuff interesting, but most folks just keep putting out the exact same basic and badly-made rules over and over again because they're trivial to implement, even though they suck to actually USE.

If we're going to have resource-management as a mechanic, it needs to be fun to manage resources. Which, almost certainly, means there need to be rewards, player-tangible or at least clearly player-visible rewards, for clever resource management--not just punishments for inept (or merely not-perfect!) management.

Or, far more fun, doing the wrong thing for the right reasons or the right thing for the wrong reasons.... :)
No. That is not fun for me, except in small doses. Genuinely doing morally wrong things in gaming makes me feel gross. Doesn't matter whether it's TTRPGs or CRPGs or even freeform roleplay. I literally do not have fun being a bad person in gaming. It just sours the entire experience.

Agreed; and that tangentially points to somethng that has been a hole in the D&D rules since 1974: there's no game mechanic for someone dying slowly or clinging to life for several days.
While that is potentially somewhat interesting, as a gameplay element, those are going to be...pretty not-great experiences. "You are definitely dead, there is no saving you" just casts a pall over the experience. Some people might find such a rule useful, so I could see value in implementing it (4e actually would do a really good job with that via its Condition Track--you'd just modify it slightly so there's no "getting better," only delaying getting worse). That said, in general these rules would not be particularly useful to most tables because they just...wouldn't be particularly fun to play around with.

I very much agree about the problem of rules designed for geometric prettiness (or geometric convenience!) but don't agree about the realism piece, as I feel that's what the rules should first and foremost be there to emulate: the in-game reality.
But that's precisely the problem: the map is not the territory, as I am fond of saying, and trying for total emulation is both a fool's errand and extremely deleterious to the game experience. That doesn't mean that providing a grounded experience is bad; far from it, groundedness is very important. The problem is...well, what you've just said: "first and foremost." You have put groundedness on a pedestal. Nothing whatsoever--not a more enjoyable gameplay experience, not rules which do their job better, NOTHING can EVER trump an improvement in "realism."

That is bad game design. Period. The game should be designed to do the stuff its designers want it to do in an engaging, enjoyable way. Groundedness will almost surely be a significant component thereof. Inflating that component until it becomes THE end-all, be-all of game design results in fiddly, overcomplicated systems that punish reasonable decision-making and reward nattering pixel-b!%@#ing and rules-lawyering. It creates systems encumbered by constant tiny adjustments because you haven't perfectly modelled the in-game reality yet.

Every game MUST be abstracted to some extent. Period. Even LARPing, which gets far more realistic than D&D ever could be, what with, y'know, actually containing physical effort in addition to rules engagement. Now, that doesn't mean we should put abstraction on a pedestal any more than we should put "realism" or groundedness. But it does mean that, if we know for absolute fact that every game must contain abstraction, we should use that abstraction. Make it work for us. Leverage it--not treat it like an enemy to be eliminated on sight.
 
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el-remmen

Moderator Emeritus
This is a long thread and I don’t know if anyone has mentioned it (like so many others I agree with, such as first aid - in 3e we ruled stabilizing someone took 1d10 rounds which the DM rolled secretly!) but I hate how 5e handles charges of wands and staves. I still use numeric limited charges like the old days. None of this “at dawn” bs (which means those items also serve as inefficient clocks when you’re underground for days at a time 😂)
 

eh, it makes them less overpowered, so a step in the right direction


not sure I follow, by limiting their access to utility spells they somehow get more of them? They already can cast all of them as a ritual, how does requiring a spell slot give them easier access?


because having some more spells using slots causes all of this and we would not basically have the exact same bookkeeping and busywork without it… also, I said nothing about cantrips


no it won’t, I’d argue this is also not the result of these changes, and in addition these would not be the only changes

Make martials more powerful, nerf casters considerably and things are good as far as I am concerned. No one said you have to like or approve it
If you force casters to waste their resources - spell slots - on boring utiltiy spells, they will use them, completely overshadowing any mundane class that could do the same things, because otherwise it will feel like wasting resources. And then they will use whatever spell slots remain to outshine the martials in combat. And beleive me, the kind of bookkeeping casters do now is tolerated only because it is midigated by excitement for all cool things they will do with their spells, which is completely killed if they're forced to take bunch of utiltiy spells, that also require far more planning and spotlight o nthe caster, that takes away from rest of the group.
Feature not bug, glorious glorious feature.

Fighters should be the best class in a straight-up fight. Wizards should be cheating bastards who figure out clever ways to use their spells to get an edge and set things up. Sledgehammer vs. Swiss army knife.
And this is accomplished by clogging wizard's way of "cheating" with boring utility spells that cannot be used outside precise ways and parameters and thus are useless as means to allow them to "cheat". how exactly?
Well, yes it does; in that while casters can do more than martials they can only do those things a strictly-limited number of times per day, meanwhile the martial just keeps on keepin' on.

It's when those per-day limits are taken off casters (rituals and cantrips, I'm looking right at you as I say this) they get out of hand in a hurry.

Only until their spells run out, at which point they'll in turn get outshone big time.

Rituals and cantrips are "quality of life updates"? How do you arrive at this conclusion?

Or is it that you just prefer overpowered casters?
I actually want martials to be as pwoerful as casters and beleive casters need a nerf. HOWEVER, I do not beleive it will be accomplished by enforcing tiresome busywork that makes playing caster a chore and makes them annoying to play with, while not making them outshine martials any less (in your example - by the time casters run out of spell slots everything is dead by their hand and now we have to solve 30-minutes argument because martials want to shine in next fight but wizard refuses to take one more step until they regain spellslots). This isn't balancing, this is removing the fun and replacing it with calculating your taxes.
 

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