Saiyans and Tyranids

[LoneWolf23]

Have you ever seen Dragonball? That's an actual power they have. If they are nearly killed, but survive, they gain an exponential amount of power. Powerful indeed, but a fundamental part of the race.

I have seen the show, and in fact, I've read the whole Manga Series. I know very well what Saiyans can do, and how powerful they can become.

...And I still think this adaptation is pushing it a bit.

One of the thing that bothers me is the assumption that all Saiyans can become Super-Saiyans, when the show and the Manga imply that Super-Saiyans are actually damn rare, and hadn't been anything more then a legend until Goku became the first one.

And he could never have become if he hadn't been unbelievably powerful as a Saiyan warrior to begin with. In Game Terms, he met all the Requirements needed to acquire a Super-Saiyan Prestige Class. ...A class he gained levels in during subsequent adventures.

All the other Saiyans (and half-saiyans) on the show also had to train before achieving the Super-Saiyan status. Vegeta couldn't become Super-Saiyan right after being dead, like Goku did. He had to do a whole lot of training afterwards just to reach Super-Saiyan one. He hadn't met all the Requirements yet, even though he'd met the "come back from death" one already.

And also... 80th character level? Most major gods in the Deities and Demigods book only have 50 Character levels... I'd recommend getting Deities and Demigods and The Epic Level Handbook before continuing this...

...But then, that's just me being number-squeamish a bit...

 

[Anubis]

I have seen the show, and in fact, I've read the whole Manga Series. I know very well what Saiyans can do, and how powerful they can become.

...And I still think this adaptation is pushing it a bit.

It's an ability they have, and this was the only way to simulate it.

One of the thing that bothers me is the assumption that all Saiyans can become Super-Saiyans, when the show and the Manga imply that Super-Saiyans are actually damn rare, and hadn't been anything more then a legend until Goku became the first one.

Also remember that ANY of the Saiyans could have been the first one. The problem was that none of them ever got powerful enough, nor did any of them have pure hearts, good or evil. They were mercenaries and never fulfilled the emotional requirements.

And he could never have become if he hadn't been unbelievably powerful as a Saiyan warrior to begin with. In Game Terms, he met all the Requirements needed to acquire a Super-Saiyan Prestige Class. ...A class he gained levels in during subsequent adventures.

If you do that, however, the power of the character will be much greater than all others of a similar level. Thus the ECL changes.

All the other Saiyans (and half-saiyans) on the show also had to train before achieving the Super-Saiyan status. Vegeta couldn't become Super-Saiyan right after being dead, like Goku did. He had to do a whole lot of training afterwards just to reach Super-Saiyan one. He hadn't met all the Requirements yet, even though he'd met the "come back from death" one already.

Coming back from the dead was never a requirement to going Super Saiyan. In fact, only two Super Saiyans ever fulfilled that requirement, Goku and Vegeta. Gohan, Trunks, Goten, and Brolly never died before going Super Saiyan the first time.

And also... 80th character level? Most major gods in the Deities and Demigods book only have 50 Character levels... I'd recommend getting Deities and Demigods and The Epic Level Handbook before continuing this...

...But then, that's just me being number-squeamish a bit...

I have both books. The deities in Deities & Demigods and SEVERELY underpowered. Why else would Demigods and Greater Deities have the same number of class levels, 40 usually in this case? Regardless, you are still underestimating the power of Super Saiyans. Goku could beat Kami in a fight, and Kami would be DvR 0. Super Saiyan Goku could beat King Kai easily, and King Kai would likely be DvR 5. Super Saiyan 3 Goku was nearly as powerful than Majin Buu, who defeated three of the four top deities in the Dragonball Z universe, all of whom would be DvR 20. How powerful, then, do you suppose Super Saiyan 4 would be?

 

[Keia]

For less debate - How about the Tyranids?

On the Tyranids side of things, has anyone worked anything up for Tyranids - particularly the non-gun-totting ones.

 

[Anubis]

Re: For less debate - How about the Tyranids?

On the Tyranids side of things, has anyone worked anything up for Tyranids - particularly the non-gun-totting ones.

A friend of mine plays the bugs, and we're working together on a design for all the Tyranids in the codex.

 

[Broken Fang]

I play bugs as well...just don't think I have the time to convert them all. I would critique any that are posted though, or if you just want some of them coverted might be able to give you a fast conversion for some of the basic types. I think I would probably throw out Zoanthropes (psionic bugs) and Biovores (artillery bugs), though you could probably convert them. I'll see if I have time this week.

 

[LoneWolf23]

It's an ability they have, and this was the only way to simulate it.

Also remember that ANY of the Saiyans could have been the first one. The problem was that none of them ever got powerful enough, nor did any of them have pure hearts, good or evil. They were mercenaries and never fulfilled the emotional requirements.

Any of the Saiyans? I doubt it. Your judgement of the Saiyan Race is based on Goku and Vegita, who're actually very exceptional members of the Saiyan race. All other Saiyans are relatively weaker in comparaison. Take Nappa or one of the Saiyan warriors from the DBZ movie that features Goku's father. While they were all very good fighters, none of them comes close to Goku's level of competance. Goku was a Saiyan with about 10 or 12 levels of Monk added.

This whole "Pure of Heart" thing sounds too nebulous to use as an actual measuring stick for D20 character creation. Let's face it, there aren't any "purity of heart" stats in D&D. But the "Powerful Enough" thing is easily measurable by stats like Basic Attack Bonuses, Feats like Toughness or other abilities marking raw physical power. But if you really want to have "purity of heart" matter, just make a high Will bonus important.

Coming back from the dead was never a requirement to going Super Saiyan. In fact, only two Super Saiyans ever fulfilled that requirement, Goku and Vegeta. Gohan, Trunks, Goten, and Brolly never died before going Super Saiyan the first time.

Also, Gohan, Goten and Trunks are half-human, Half-Saiyan crossbreeds, not pure Saiyans. But they're still exceptional warriors who achieved the level of Super-Saiyan. So this ability isn't limited to pure-bred Saiyan, but to anyone with Saiyan blood who meets the very high character requirments.

I have both books. The deities in Deities & Demigods and SEVERELY underpowered. Why else would Demigods and Greater Deities have the same number of class levels, 40 usually in this case? Regardless, you are still underestimating the power of Super Saiyans. Goku could beat Kami in a fight, and Kami would be DvR 0. Super Saiyan Goku could beat King Kai easily, and King Kai would likely be DvR 5. Super Saiyan 3 Goku was nearly as powerful than Majin Buu, who defeated three of the four top deities in the Dragonball Z universe, all of whom would be DvR 20. How powerful, then, do you suppose Super Saiyan 4 would be?

Hmm... I think with that Divine Ranks, Divine Salient Abilities and Divine Feats taken into account, the Deities in Deities and Demigods are very powerful. And Kami isn't Divine Rank 0. He's not even Immortal. Hell, none of DBZ's vaunted Deities, right up to the Supreme Kai, are immortal. They're more like High Powered Mortals.

Real D&D Deities aren't just high-powered characters. The Divine Ranks come with Divine Abilities, like Divine Immunities, "Instant Successes", Divine Salient Abilities like Divine Blast or Life or Gift of Life. Supreme Kai doesn't seem to rank as a D&D style Deity.

Debura seemed about his level, and Buu turned him into a Cookie. So Debura did not have Divine Immunity to Transmutation, which means he does not have Divine Rank. And yet Supreme Kai seemed afraid of Debura as if the demon was his equal or superior. So there goes the "greater then Divine Rank 20" theory.

I think you need to look over the Deities and Demigods book again, and take a look at the details this time.

 

[Anabstercorian]

I think that LoneWolf has a serious point about the stats for Super Saiyan. It should be an extremely difficult to enter Epic Prestige Class, if you ask me.

Still, your 'basic' saiyan seems a little too potent. I'd base your 'standard' saiyan on the punk who first called Goku 'Kakerot', minus a couple of hit dice. Even he was fairly high in rank. Goku and Vegeta are a whole new ball game.

 

[Anubis]

Any of the Saiyans? I doubt it. Your judgement of the Saiyan Race is based on Goku and Vegita, who're actually very exceptional members of the Saiyan race. All other Saiyans are relatively weaker in comparaison. Take Nappa or one of the Saiyan warriors from the DBZ movie that features Goku's father. While they were all very good fighters, none of them comes close to Goku's level of competance. Goku was a Saiyan with about 10 or 12 levels of Monk added.

This whole "Pure of Heart" thing sounds too nebulous to use as an actual measuring stick for D20 character creation. Let's face it, there aren't any "purity of heart" stats in D&D. But the "Powerful Enough" thing is easily measurable by stats like Basic Attack Bonuses, Feats like Toughness or other abilities marking raw physical power. But if you really want to have "purity of heart" matter, just make a high Will bonus important.



Also, Gohan, Goten and Trunks are half-human, Half-Saiyan crossbreeds, not pure Saiyans. But they're still exceptional warriors who achieved the level of Super-Saiyan. So this ability isn't limited to pure-bred Saiyan, but to anyone with Saiyan blood who meets the very high character requirments.



Hmm... I think with that Divine Ranks, Divine Salient Abilities and Divine Feats taken into account, the Deities in Deities and Demigods are very powerful. And Kami isn't Divine Rank 0. He's not even Immortal. Hell, none of DBZ's vaunted Deities, right up to the Supreme Kai, are immortal. They're more like High Powered Mortals.

Real D&D Deities aren't just high-powered characters. The Divine Ranks come with Divine Abilities, like Divine Immunities, "Instant Successes", Divine Salient Abilities like Divine Blast or Life or Gift of Life. Supreme Kai doesn't seem to rank as a D&D style Deity.

Debura seemed about his level, and Buu turned him into a Cookie. So Debura did not have Divine Immunity to Transmutation, which means he does not have Divine Rank. And yet Supreme Kai seemed afraid of Debura as if the demon was his equal or superior. So there goes the "greater then Divine Rank 20" theory.

I think you need to look over the Deities and Demigods book again, and take a look at the details this time.

I think perhaps you should pay more attention to things in Dragonball, and also listen to what I'm saying. There is an exception to every rule, and the transmutation rule is one such rule. Majin Buu had a power that could even effect deities, plain and simple.

As for the deities, you must remember that Supreme Kai was second-tier, NOT top-tier. It's like this:

Kami (Kami-sama): DvR 0
King Kai (Kaio-sama): DvR 5
Grand Kai (Dai-Kaio): DvR 10
Supreme Kai (Kaioshin): DvR 15
Old Kai (Dai-Kaioshin): DvR 20

Simple, see? Majin Buu killed three of the four total Dai-Kaioshins, not getting the last one because the last one was sealed in the Z-Sword. That puts Majin Buu as more powerful than DvR 20, and makes Super Saiyan 3 more powerful than DvR 20 as well. Why do my numbers not reflect that? GOKU WAS EXCEPTIONAL, EVEN AS SUPER SAIYAN 3! Also is the fact that my numbers need so many Levels that even with those weaker SDA powers as Ki powers, they could still beat a Greater Deity.

The ONLY other house rule you'd have to make is to give a save to all the "instant death" attacks, and dumb down Annihilating Strike. Thankfully, UK has done this for us.

As for Half-Saiyans, that will be a template. Half-Saiyans do not have the Power Adaptation ability, nor do they have the same requirements for going Super Saiyan/2/3/4. Half-Saiyans can go Super Saiyan 1 more easily, but have the requirements of Super Saiyan 1 for regular Saiyans to go Super Saiyan 2 (meaning the pure of heart requirements, which is subject to DM discretion, maybe getting thrown out of my design, and the emotional trauma state). All that, however, explains why Goten and Trunks never go Super Saiyan 2. Also, Super Saiyan 2 ability is obviously NOT a reuirement for going Super Saiyan 3 because Gotenks does it within being able to go Super Saiyan 2.

 

[Anubis]

I think that LoneWolf has a serious point about the stats for Super Saiyan. It should be an extremely difficult to enter Epic Prestige Class, if you ask me.

Still, your 'basic' saiyan seems a little too potent. I'd base your 'standard' saiyan on the punk who first called Goku 'Kakerot', minus a couple of hit dice. Even he was fairly high in rank. Goku and Vegeta are a whole new ball game.

I am considering a special Pretige Class type for this, more on that later. It would not work like other Prestige Classes, though. Basically, it would be a combination Prestige Class chain with many more than ten levels.

As for the basic Saiyan . . . You severely underestimate the basic Saiyan. Radditz was an exceptional Saiyan, but he was also ten times more powerful than the most powerful human on earth!

Goku was thirty times more powerful than that before going Super Saiyan.

This obviously, as I said before, does NOT work, as that would put a basic Saiyan at Level 20.

I am considering bumping Saiyans down quite a bit, however. I don't know what I'll do yet, but I'm working on it.

 

[LoneWolf23]

I think perhaps you should pay more attention to things in Dragonball, and also listen to what I'm saying. There is an exception to every rule, and the transmutation rule is one such rule. Majin Buu had a power that could even effect deities, plain and simple.

I do pay attention to things in Dragonball... But you just can't drop a rule just because it contradicts your little theory about Majin Buu's powers. If a Deity is Immune to Transmutations, it's Immune, and no amount of saying "No no, this is a special case" can reverse that.

As for the deities, you must remember that Supreme Kai was second-tier, NOT top-tier. It's like this:

Kami (Kami-sama): DvR 0
King Kai (Kaio-sama): DvR 5
Grand Kai (Dai-Kaio): DvR 10
Supreme Kai (Kaioshin): DvR 15
Old Kai (Dai-Kaioshin): DvR 20

Prove it. What are Supreme Kai or Old Kai's Divine Salient abilities, then? How could Old Kai be captured inside a Sword in spite of his Divine Immunity to Imprisonment (which all Greater Deities have)? Why didn't Supreme Kai just create an Avatar of himself to safely investigate Buu's prison?

Simple, see? Majin Buu killed three of the four total Dai-Kaioshins, not getting the last one because the last one was sealed in the Z-Sword. That puts Majin Buu as more powerful than DvR 20, and makes Super Saiyan 3 more powerful than DvR 20 as well. Why do my numbers not reflect that? GOKU WAS EXCEPTIONAL, EVEN AS SUPER SAIYAN 3! Also is the fact that my numbers need so many Levels that even with those weaker SDA powers as Ki powers, they could still beat a Greater Deity.

You don't even have stats for Buu, so you can't say he's powerful to the Greater Gods of Deities and Demigods. You still haven't proven to me that Buu could defeat Boccob, Gruumsh or Re-Horakhty in combat.

Let's just take a Greater Deity like Re-Horakhty for exemple. His Divine Immunities include Ability Damage, Ability Drain, Acid, Cold, Death Effects, Disease, Disintegration, Electricity, Energy Drain, Mind-affecting effects, paralysis, poison, sleep, stunning, transmutation, imprisonment, and banishment.

He has the Divine Salient Ability of Alter Reality, allowing him to duplicate any 9th level or lower spell as a standard action. That means he can just touch Majin Buu and entomb the creature in a state of suspended animation with a touch attack. No Savings Throw to resist.
He also has Annihilating Strike, although this one allows a Save.
His Battlesense makes him unable to surprise or catch flat-footed, so the old "Oh, I'm actually behind you but you didn't notice yet" DBZ Trick doesn't work on him.
He can avoid 69% of damage with his Divine Dodge Ability.
His Divine Monk Ability allows him to deflect any ranged attacks, including your usual "Kamehamehas".
He can keep Buu out of striking range with a Divine Storm attack, which would both expel and damage the Chaotic Evil Buu.

And I haven't even touched spells, weapons and other bonuses...

If Majin Buu can effortlessly defeat all of that, then congratulations, you've just discovered a Divine Rank 100 Being. Which means that giving Buu (and Goku, by that account) stats is an exercice in Futility, since he's unbeatable by anything short of DM fiat.

Otherwise, I prefer to consider that the "deities" of the DBZ Universe are actually very under-powered, compared to D&D's Deities and Demigods.