Saiyans and Tyranids

LoneWolf23 said:


I do pay attention to things in Dragonball... But you just can't drop a rule just because it contradicts your little theory about Majin Buu's powers. If a Deity is Immune to Transmutations, it's Immune, and no amount of saying "No no, this is a special case" can reverse that.



Prove it. What are Supreme Kai or Old Kai's Divine Salient abilities, then? How could Old Kai be captured inside a Sword in spite of his Divine Immunity to Imprisonment (which all Greater Deities have)? Why didn't Supreme Kai just create an Avatar of himself to safely investigate Buu's prison?



You don't even have stats for Buu, so you can't say he's powerful to the Greater Gods of Deities and Demigods. You still haven't proven to me that Buu could defeat Boccob, Gruumsh or Re-Horakhty in combat.

Let's just take a Greater Deity like Re-Horakhty for exemple. His Divine Immunities include Ability Damage, Ability Drain, Acid, Cold, Death Effects, Disease, Disintegration, Electricity, Energy Drain, Mind-affecting effects, paralysis, poison, sleep, stunning, transmutation, imprisonment, and banishment.

He has the Divine Salient Ability of Alter Reality, allowing him to duplicate any 9th level or lower spell as a standard action. That means he can just touch Majin Buu and entomb the creature in a state of suspended animation with a touch attack. No Savings Throw to resist.
He also has Annihilating Strike, although this one allows a Save.
His Battlesense makes him unable to surprise or catch flat-footed, so the old "Oh, I'm actually behind you but you didn't notice yet" DBZ Trick doesn't work on him.
He can avoid 69% of damage with his Divine Dodge Ability.
His Divine Monk Ability allows him to deflect any ranged attacks, including your usual "Kamehamehas".
He can keep Buu out of striking range with a Divine Storm attack, which would both expel and damage the Chaotic Evil Buu.

And I haven't even touched spells, weapons and other bonuses...

If Majin Buu can effortlessly defeat all of that, then congratulations, you've just discovered a Divine Rank 100 Being. Which means that giving Buu (and Goku, by that account) stats is an exercice in Futility, since he's unbeatable by anything short of DM fiat.

Otherwise, I prefer to consider that the "deities" of the DBZ Universe are actually very under-powered, compared to D&D's Deities and Demigods.

The underlying problem, as I stated in the beginning, is the fact that Dragonball characters can't be directly translated into Dungeons & Dragon as-is. If so, then yes, Majin Buu and Goku would indeed be DvR 100 or even higher, because that's how freaking powerful they were in the series.

As such, I toned down the powers. THAT is my point.
 

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*Wades into debate with pointless point*

Can Re-Horakhty destroy an entire planet with a simple blast of force? Frieza could, quite easily, and he was slightly inferior to a Super Saiyan 1 even in his strongest form.

--Impeesa--
 

I have a number of comments, one is hi =D i'm new here. anyways, i think trying to directly adapt ANY manga to any game is silly. The major reason being is that, the writiers do what they want. Why do Buu and Gotenks have the one time ability to rip through a dimensions? Perfect Cell comes back to life with the ability to teleport (retroactive dna sampling?) for the only good reason so that Gohan could go SSJ2. Also, why is Gohan such a pathetic half saiyan? So is Pan for that matter. eh, sorry about the rant ^_^ anyways, i would say the best way to make saiyajins would be to pick how powerful you want SSj to be (screw the anime and manga, just pick something) maybe divine level 1. And then go off that.

lonewolf and anubis were arguing on whether ANY saiyajin could have become SSJ. Whether you believe so in the story is irrelevent, D&D is based on the assumption that any mortal (pc) given time, experiance and a DM willing to go that far, has the potential to become epic. So really you must assume that ANY saiyajin, given the circumstances can go SSJ, otherwise you will have normal saiyajin's and some premade characters.

me personally, i prefer dragonball ^_^
meh, this is long, but here is my attempts at some Tyranids. Ive never actually made monsters using the D20 system before, so i'm not sure if they're any good.
a fleshborer would be pretty powerful, like equivalant of a heavy machingun. i dont have any of the modern source books.

Tyranids

Name: Termagaunt
Type: Small Aberration
HD: 1d8+1 (5)
Initiative: +2 (+2 dex)
Speed: 30ft
AC: 15 (+2 dex, +1 size, +2 natural)
Attacks: bite +3; or fleshborer +2
Damage: bite d6; Fleshborer
Face/reach: 5 ft. by 5 ft./5 ft
Special Attacks: None
Special Qualifications: Hive mind (submissive)
Saves; fort: +1 Ref: +2 Will: -1
Abilities; Str: 11 Dex: 14 Con: 12 Int: 7 WIs: 8 Cha: 6
Skills: +3 Move silently, +5 Hide, +4 Listen, +4 Spot, +2 climb
Feats: Alertness, run, weapon finesse (bite)
Climate/terrain: Jungle, Space, any
Orginization: squad 10-30, army 30-300, Horde 300-1000
Challange rating: 1/2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Neutral Evil
Advancement: 2-4 HD (small size)

Name: Hormagaunt
Type: small aberration
HD: 1d8+1 (5)
Initiative: +2 (+2 dex)
Speed: 30 ft
AC: 15 (+2 dex, +1 size, +2 natural)
Attacks: 2 claws +3, bite -3
Damage: claws d6+1, bite d3+1
Face/reach: 5 ft. by 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: None
Special Qualifications: Hive mind (submissive)
Saves; fort: +1 Ref: +2 Will: -1
Abilities; Str: 12 Dex: 14 Con: 12 Int: 7 WIs: 8 Cha: 7
Skills: +12 jump, +4 hide, +2 spot
Feats: Run, weapon finesse (claws), leap attack
Climate/terrain: jungle, space, any
Orginization: squad 10-30, army 30-300, Horde 300-1000
Challange rating: 1/2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Neutral Evil
Advancement: 2-4 Hd (small size


Name: Carnifex
Type: Large Aberration
HD: 6D8 +30 (63)
Initiative: +1 (Dex)
Speed: 30 ft
AC: 20 (-1 size, +1 dex, +10 natural)
Attacks: 4 claws +12 ,bite +7; Or 2 claws +12, bite +7 & 1 ranged weapon +7
Damage: Claws 2d6+7, Bite 1d8+7; ranged weapon (special)
Face/reach: 5 ft. by 5 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Bio plasma (breathe attack), Shrieking (frightful presence)
Special Qualifications: Hive mind (submissive), Damage reduction 15/+1
Saves; fort: +10 Ref: +3 Will: +2
Abilities; Str: 26 Dex: 12 Con: 22 Int: 6 WIs: 6 Cha: 8
Skills: Intimidate +8, Spot +2
Feats: Trample, Power attack, Iron will
Climate/terrain: jungle, space, any
Orginization: Solitary, Army 1-3, Horde 4+
Challange rating: 7?
Treasure: None
Alignment: Neutral Evil
Advancement: 7-10 HD (large size)

Bio plasma (Line breath weapon) Range = hit dice X 5 ft. Damage = 1/2 HD Xd4 reflex (half damage) DC = 11+HD
May be used every D4 rounds. Acid type.

Leap attack: Designate a target within distance of a normal leap attack
then make a leap skill check. If succesful and able to reach the target,
perform a charge attack that does double normal damage.
 

oh yeah, another thing i wanted to say, was thay Goku stubs his toe and hits his shins on rocks and it hurts, but he can still take a planet busting attack head on. so i would suggest taking into acount powering up. cus if i was fighting anyone from DBZ, i would take improved init. and stab them before they finished grunting and staring for 3 episodes :D
 

Impeesa said:
*Wades into debate with pointless point*

Can Re-Horakhty destroy an entire planet with a simple blast of force? Frieza could, quite easily, and he was slightly inferior to a Super Saiyan 1 even in his strongest form.

--Impeesa--

Actually, I think Re-Horakhty could blow up a planet with a well-applied blast of force. Its not as if Frieza snapped his fingers and caused the planets to blow up. His energy Blast simply went past the crust and into the mantle, causing worlds to grow unstable and blow up. Freeza did blow up namek, but his Death Ball took almost an hour to destroy the world, so it's not like it was an instant thing.

The problem here is that I think a direct translation from DBZ to D&D is impossible without being completly ridiculous in one direction or another. Goku is NOT a Divine Rank 100 or 1000 character, he's just an incredibly High-Level Epic being. If Goku has achieved Divine Ranks, then he's most likely become a Greater Deity.

But I repeat... Not all Saijin are like Goku! That's almost saying that all Green Lanterns are Hal Jordan. You can't rate the group based on the single most powerful example of the race, it's just silly.

But I can see I'm not going to convince anyone, so what I'm going to do is write up my own, more balanced version of the Saijins. Something that won't attract Munchkins by the bucketload...
 

Saiya-Jin.... Sorry had to say it.

Buddha has authored a 15+ page conversion of the Saiya-Jin, and various DBZ Martial Arts techniques for Heroes Unlimited - Revised Second Edition.

If anyone wants to see it email or IM me and I'll tell you where it can be found.
 

Buddha - Is that something you wrote yourself? I have a beautiful Rifts conversion of the Z Warrior by a Yun Pang... It doesn't seem to exist on the net anymore, I'm glad I saved my copy.

--Impeesa--

PS. Wolf - fine then, go back a bit. Even Vegeta could destroy a planet quickly with a single blast, before he even came to Earth.
 


I have made some changes to my draft of the Saiyan race, changes I think help balance thigns better while also making them easier to use. Here is Version 2:



SAIYAN

Medium-Size/Colossal Shapechanger
Hit Dice: 8d8+32+36 (104 hp); 8d8+112+36 (212 hp)
Initiative: +4; +2 (Dex)
Speed: 30 ft.; 20 ft.
AC: 16 (+1 bonus, +5 Saiyan battle armor); 30 (-2 Dex, -8 size, +1 bonus, +5 Saiyan battle armor, +24 natural)
Attacks: Unarmed strike +14/+11; 2 slams +26 melee, bite +21 melee
Damage: Unarmed strike 1d10+5; slam 4d8+25, bite 8d6+12
Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 5 ft./5 ft.; 40 ft. by 40 ft./25 ft.
Special Attacks: Oozaru form, monk abilities
Special Qualities: Tail weakness, power adaptation, monk abilities
Saves: Fort +12, Ref +6, Will +6; Fort +22, Ref +4, Will +4
Abilities: Str 27, Dex 11, Con 19, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 8; Str 67, Dex 7, Con 39, Int 6, Wis 6, Cha 4
Skills: Balance +1, Bluff +8, Jump +9, Knowledge (fighting) +9, Tumble +10
Feats: Saiyan's Toughness, Improved Initiative, Great Fortitude

Climate/Terrain: Any land and underground
Organization: Solitary, pair, unit (2-5), company (5-20), or legion (101-200)
Challenge Rating: 15
Treasure: Standard
Alignment: Usually neutral evil
Advancement: By character class

Saiyans are a powerful mercenary shapechanging race composed almost entirely of warriors. They sell their services to the highest bidder, and frequently take over entire planets in order to sell salvaged goods, people captured to be used as slaves, and even the planets themselves to whoever is willing to meet their price. This warlike race is unmatched in power and brutality.

Saiyans are powerfully built, with wild hair and dark eyes. For the most part, however, they look frighteningly human, and are unable to be distinguished from humans by the untrained eye.

What makes the Saiyan race even more frightening, however, is their ability to transform into colossal apes in the light of a full moon. When in their Oozaru form, they destroy everything and kill everyone in their paths, leaving a wake of death and destruction.

COMBAT

Saiyans have a natural gift for fighting, able to fight unarmed just as a monk, and also able to defend himself or herself as a monk could as well. Saiyans live to fight. Saiyans rarely do anything other than fight directly in combat, not caring for the use of tactics when power will usually suffice. A Saiyan is rendered powerless, however, by grabbing its tail.

In Oozaru form, Saiyans merely smash and eat everything in sight, using its devastating breath weapon on those out of reach. These terrible monsters are ten times as powerful as a normal Saiyan, and are nearly impossible to defeat in physical combat. Only by removing the light of the moon or cutting off the Saiyan's tail can the Oozaru be forced back into its normal Saiyan form.

Oozaru Form (Su): In the light of a full moon, Saiyans revert to a primordial state in the form of a colossal ape. In this form, the Saiyan is in a constant state of rage, and will destroy anything and everything around it. A Saiyan must have his or her tail to transform. When the light of the full moon is gone, the Oozaru will change back into its normal Saiyan form. Removing the tail of the Oozaru also causes the Saiyan to change back to his or her normal form. A Saiyan in Oozaru form receives maximum hit points per hit die upon transforming.

Breath Weapon (Su): While in Oozaru form, a Saiyan is sometimes attacked from afar and unable to pummel or eat the attacker. Sometimes a Saiyan in Oozaru form is simply in a really bad mood. In these instances, the Oozaru breath weapon is invaluable. Line of energy, 400 feet; damage 1d10 per HD/level, Reflex half DC 28.

Monk Abilities (Ex): Saiyans attack as monks, using the monk's favorable number of attacks per round, as well as dealing damage as a monk of a level equal to the sum of the Saiyan's hit HD and levels. Saiyans also gain the benefits of the Improved Unarmed Strike Feat, as well as access to the monk's Flurry of Blows and Stunning Attack, and they gain the Stunning Fist feat for free. In addition to monk attack forms, Saiyans gain a bonus to their AC as monks of a level equal to the sum of the Saiyan's HD and levels, including a Wisdom bonus to AC whenever applicable.

Tail Weakness: By grabbing the tail of a Saiyan, you can stun him or her. This condition lasts as long as the tail is tightly held. This is ineefective again a Saiyan in Oozaru form. If a Saiyan's tail is removed while he or she is in Oozaru form, he or she immediately changes back to his or her normal form. Whenever a Saiyan's tail is removed, he or she must succeed at a Fortitude save (DC 30) or be stunned for a number of rounds equal to the amount the save was missed by, double that number if a natural "1" is rolled. The tail has a 1 in 6 chance of growing back in 1d12 months two weeks before the next full moon. Without his or her tail, a Saiyan's loses 8 Strength and 4 Constitution, and is unable to transform into an Oozaru.

Power Adaptation (Ex): Saiyans are very hard to kill, and only gain more power if they survive an otherwise fatal attack. When a Saiyan is reduced below 0 hit points, once he or she recovers, he or she gains 100 experience points for each point below 0 he or she went, and receives a permanent cumulative +1 bonus to Strength and Constitution; if the added experience points give him or her enough to gain a level, he or she gains that level immediately. For example, if a Saiyan is reduced to -8 hit points and then healed with a Heal spell, the Saiyan immediately gains 800 experience points. If the Saiyan had 189,500 experience points before, he now has 190,300 experience points and gains a level. *A Saiyan can only be killed by reducing it to a negative number of hit points equal to it's Constitution score plus its total Effective Character Level. In other words, if a Saiyan has three character levels and a Constitution score of 16, he or she must be reduced to -34 hit points to be killed.

*In the Chaotic Worlds campaign, all character follow this rule. In the Chaotic Worlds campaign, Saiyans are harder to kill due to the Saiyan's Toughness feat.

NEW FEATS

Saiyan's Toughness [Saiyan]
You're a Saiyan, and thus much tougher than most other races.
Prerequisites: Saiyan
Benefit: You gain +36 hit points and your "death's door" range is doubled. This is applied before all other modifiers, including other feats in the Toughness chain of feats.

Tail Weakness Immunity [Saiyan]
You have surpassed the normal limits of a Saiyan warrior and have become immune to the Tail Weakness shown by other Saiyans.
Prerequisites: Saiyan, Tail Weakness trait, character level 9th+
Benefit: You are immune to all of the effects of Tail Weakness. You are still unable to transform into an Oozaru without your tail, however.

SAIYAN SOCIETY

Saiyans are an extremly militant race. Saiyans live for war, fighting, and power. Only the strongest survive, and the strong will rule over the weak. Saiyans are loyal to the most powerful of their kind.

Saiyans are well organized in fighting armies, all with extreme amounts of power. Saiyans' teamwork is second to none, but if one shows weakness, his or her comrades will show no remorse in disposing of the weakling. This race strived to increase their power in the universe, and will routinely take over planets, strip a planet of its natural resources, kill all opposing males, take opposing females as slaves for harems, and sell opposing children into slavery. Most Saiyans are pure evil. although because of their warlike nature, many die before fulfilling their true potential.

Saiyans usually live approximately as long as humans do.

SAIYAN CHARACTERS

A Saiyan's favored classes are fighter and martial artist (a monk variation), and Saiyan leaders tend to be fighter/martial artists and fighter/monks. Saiyan clerics are few and far between and worship "The Legendary Super Saiyan", and can choose two of the following domains: Destruction, Strength, and War. The Effective Character Level of a normal Saiyan is +15.

SAIYAN WARRIOR CLASS

Most Saiyans are Saiyan Warriors. These are their powers.
Hit Die: d8

Requirements
To qualify to become a Saiyan Warrior, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria.
Race: Saiyan or half-Saiyan
Knowledge (fighting): 9 ranks

Class Skills
The Saiyan Warrior's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (fighting) (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), and Tumble (Dex). See Chapter 4: Skills in the Player's Handbook for skill descriptions.

Skill Points at Each Level: 4 + Int modifier

Code:
The Saiyan Warrior

Class       Base       Fort    Ref   Will
Level   Attack Bonus   Save   Save   Save   Special
1st          +0         +2     +2     +2 Fortified Body
2nd          +1         +3     +3     +3 
3rd          +2         +3     +3     +3 Fortified Blood
4th          +3         +4     +4     +4 Damage reduction 10/+1
5th          +3         +4     +4     +4 Fortified Soul
6th          +4         +5     +5     +5 
7th          +5         +5     +5     +5 
8th          +6         +6     +6     +6 Damage reduction 20/+2
9th          +6         +6     +6     +6 
10th         +7         +7     +7     +7 Evasion
11th         +8         +7     +7     +7 
12th         +9         +8     +8     +8 Damage reduction 30/+3
13th         +9         +8     +8     +8 
14th        +10         +9     +9     +9 
15th        +11         +9     +9     +9 Improved Evasion
16th        +12        +10    +10    +10 Damage reduction 40/+4
17th        +12        +10    +10    +10 
18th        +13        +11    +11    +11 
19th        +14        +11    +11    +11 
20th        +15        +12    +12    +12 Damage reduction 50/+5, Wholeness of Body

Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Saiyans are born warriors, and have no need for weapons or armor of any kind. The only armor a Saiyan will ever wear is Saiyan battle armor. Saiyan battle armor is the same as Mithral Breastplate.

Fortified Body: At 1st level, a Saiyan Warrior gains control over his body's immune systems. He gains immunity to all diseases except fpr magical diseases such as mummy rot and lycanthropy.

Fortified Blood: At 3rd level, a Saiyan Warrior is in such control of his own metabolism that he gains immunity to poison of all kinds.

Fortified Soul: At 5th level, a Saiyan Warrior gains spell resistance. His spell resistance equals his level + 10. In order to affect the Saiyan Warrior with a spell, a spellcaster must roll the Saiyan Warrior's spell resistance or higher on 1d20 + the spellcaster's level.

Wholeness of Body: At 20th level, a Saiyan Warrior can cure his own wounds. He can cure up to twice his current total ECL in hit points each day, and he can spread this healing out among several uses. Wholeness of Body is a supernatural ability.



This is under construction. What do you all think so far? Rules for Super Saiyan abilities are on the way . . . This is it for now, and it's all you need to play a basic Saiyan . . .
 
Last edited:

Anubis said:
This is under construction. What do you all think so far? Rules for Super Saiyan abilities are on the way . . . This is it for now, and it's all you need to play a basic Saiyan . . .

Now this works better for me. Not so overwhelmingly powerful now, I guess.

Sorry if I seemed aggressive earlier, but I stick with D&D's method of ranking divine power, which isn't just how much stuff you can blow up with a single strike. Blowing up a planet isn't a big deal... The Death Star can do it, a Green Lantern can do it, Thanos can do it... But nobody accuses them of being gods.

Dungeons and Dragon's gods aren't just measured by pure destructive power, but also by their invulnerability, their ability to create and transform things, their skill and knowledge, and their ability to know things beyond the ken of Mortals.

I've seen Dragonball Z's King Kais and Supreme Kais, and they never seemed as powerful as Pelor, Re-Horakhty or Gruumsh to me. While King Kai does have the abilty to sense things on other world, that just seems like a divine skill to me, since he can only do it on one location at a time.

I'll try to limit my criticism to constructive gaming suggestions from now on, but I still consider the most powerful beings in Dragonball Z as Epic level beings, not Deities...
 

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