D&D 5E Sane Magic Item Prices

[Maxperson]

But no one wants what you are selling, so trying to keep forcing your opinion into the conversationon when others have routinely disagreed with you is not constructive in the slightest. It fact, it just comes across as masturbatory.

But people forcing their opinions into the conversation when others(not just me in this thread) have disagreed with them, isn't?

 

[Chaosmancer]

There is no responsibility or duty to price things. And I'm not sure why a DM wouldn't be confident to make up random numbers, not that anything I'm saying is about making things up randomly. Coming up with random numbers is something a 4 year old can do.

I gave an example a few posts ago. I feel no desire to repeat myself. Just because you aren't sure why, doesn't mean I didn't experience literally that exact thing.

You are aware that mundane items and magic items are not the same, right? They are not anything even close to being equivalent.

And how are they different? What about an Airship is so vastly different than a Carpet of Flying? The size?

 

[Maxperson]

Now, I'd like to talk about why the community, DnD and ENworld, seems to have this idea that any form of making money that does not explicitly involve going on an adventure is bad.

No idea. I've seen plenty people here, including myself, be okay with it.

Why it ruins the game. Why it needs to be stopped on every front. Because it is also the reason I've been told that we can't have a crafting system where being profitable is possible. It seems to me that any way of making large sums of money has to be dragged back into ways to make them less reliable and randomized. It seems that if you are making small sums, no one cares. To me, that seems to be because that adventures tend to lead to large sums of money, so people don't feel threatened by a player making small sums of money, but as soon as they make a big sum of money... it has to be a problem, to be analyzed and prevented.

I'd like to talk about all that, but instead you are going to tell me that you made it a downtime table, so there is nothing to talk about. After all, the only thing that matters is your table and your game, because we can't possibly talk beyond those two things in any way shape or form. And you totally already apologized for missing that I was talking about Downtime, so why am I still obsessing over it?

Large amounts of free money are very unbalancing. Like anything else, balance is needed. That's part of why the downtime rules 1) don't involve large sums of money, and 2) are randomized. The other part is realism. It's unrealistic to always be 100% successful.

 

[Maxperson]

I gave an example a few posts ago. I feel no desire to repeat myself. Just because you aren't sure why, doesn't mean I didn't experience literally that exact thing.




And how are they different? What about an Airship is so vastly different than a Carpet of Flying? The size?

Size. Utility. Ease of use. And more.

 

[Azzy]

But people forcing their opinions into the conversation when others(not just me in this thread) have disagreed with them, isn't?

This thread is about utility-based pricing for magic items. Go make your own thread.

 

[tetrasodium]

Because the larger point isn't about downtime at all. I only talked about downtime to AVOID the EXACT issue that came up. Everyone accusing me of advocating for the party to stop adventuring for all time and do nothing except milk gold from their businesses.

And, lo and behold, I was still accused of that exact sentiment. FOUR TIMES. One of those times was by you, because you missed that I said it was downtime. But, since then, you have refused to address the point, instead insisting that you already apologized for missing that it was downtime, as though that solves the point and we no longer need to discuss the point I was trying to make.

Now, I'd like to talk about why the community, DnD and ENworld, seems to have this idea that any form of making money that does not explicitly involve going on an adventure is bad. Why it ruins the game. Why it needs to be stopped on every front. Because it is also the reason I've been told that we can't have a crafting system where being profitable is possible. It seems to me that any way of making large sums of money has to be dragged back into ways to make them less reliable and randomized. It seems that if you are making small sums, no one cares. To me, that seems to be because that adventures tend to lead to large sums of money, so people don't feel threatened by a player making small sums of money, but as soon as they make a big sum of money... it has to be a problem, to be analyzed and prevented.

I'd like to talk about all that, but instead you are going to tell me that you made it a downtime table, so there is nothing to talk about. After all, the only thing that matters is your table and your game, because we can't possibly talk beyond those two things in any way shape or form. And you totally already apologized for missing that I was talking about Downtime, so why am I still obsessing over it?

Despite all the wailing & gnashing of teeth against this point and the very idea that wotc should finish the game & provide prices/wealth by level guidelines I can't help noticing that they provide even less guidance on downtime & that even the AL downtime rules are vague at best

 

[Ancalagon]

Why do people so often seem to leap to the conclusion that providing magic item pricing is immediately going to lead to magic shops?

Magic item pricing is essential if a party want to evenly divide their treasure by value (and what other fair and equitable way is there of doing it?); and if the game doesn't provide that pricing then the DM has to, which dumps a lot of probably-unexpected work into the DM's lap.

It's up to each individual DM to decide if the setting has and-or supports magic shops.

1: Because it does lead to "3e ish" desire from the PCs to buy their own magical items.

1a: The existence of a price list is a rational conclusion that a magical item market (shops, regular auctions, guild mandated price, something) exist. Otherwise, how were the prices determined, in world? Value is determined by something, and that something is usually the market. I'm in a home right now. I could give you every detail of the home itself, and you would not be able to tell me its value... until you knew where the home was, then you could look up the market and see how much similar homes are being sold for in this part of town.

1b: Therefore, players will rationally conclude that such conditions exist.

1c: However, it is highly questionable that the existence of such a market does make sense. After all... who's paying for these magical items? Who keeps a price list?

2: Magical item pricing in this context is not a rational way to determine who should get what, item wise. If your party finds an axe +1, a pearl of power and a wand of fireball, and the party consists of a barbarian and a wizard... the wand and the pearl are worthless to the barbarian, but the axe she can use.

2b: Rational pricing of magical item is questionable because the utility of items is very specific and very circumstantial. Of course, a +2 weapon is worth more than a +1 weapon... but is a bag of holding worth more or less than a +1 shield?

3: It is up to the GM yes, but player expectations is a thing that exists.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Like I said earlier, the pricing can be fully meta, i.e. I want to improve my weapon. DM: okay, you can choose x at this amount of gold, or y for that amount or z for the same amount as x costs. Player then chooses.
No magic shoppes needed. No loss of control for DM.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

Does anyone remember what the 2e crafting rules involved? Tons of hunting for rare and arbitrary ingredients followed by repeated castings of spells just to make a single +1 weapon. I’m surprised anyone bothered.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Large amounts of free money are very unbalancing. Like anything else, balance is needed. That's part of why the downtime rules 1) don't involve large sums of money, and 2) are randomized. The other part is realism. It's unrealistic to always be 100% successful.

See, Lanefan gave me a whole list of things for it being unbalancing. A lot of it was stuff I doubt the majority of people would actually do. Such as hiring 50 mercenaries to win all the fights. Because that is boring for the players. A lot of the rest of it was things from previous editions, like masterwork armors and weapons, which in 5e have no mechanical effect.

Also, eventually, you ARE giving out those large sums of money. Remember that Troll hoard I mentioned? Single day making over 2,000 gold? With that amount of money the party could easily hire 50 mercenaries for a few days, it only costs 100 per day for that many if you are using the Skilled Hireling rules. Which, you won't do and you will charge more, if your players even attempt it, which they probably don't because it isn't worth the boredom of not being able to play the game.

Now maybe you have a different list, but large sums of money are part and parcel of the game, so they can't be that unbalancing.

Ah, but you said "free money" which brings me to a second point. What is free money? Is figuring out the average daily intake from working as a blacksmith with my passive blacksmithing proficiency somehow "more free" than looting the corpse of a mindflayer? I don't even know how that mindflayer died, it could have been far easier than the 8 hours of smithing work I put in. Generally, it seems that DMs have an aversion to "free" money, because it is safe. No chance of player death or maiming. Which circles me back to the top of my posts in this thread. 1) Pricing certain magical items at insanely high prices solely to prevent money exploits is bad design and 2) There is no need to fear "free" money, as long as your players have a motivation beyond profit. You can have a player or two whose motivation is profit, but much like Han Solo could have made far more money turning in Lea and Luke than fighting with them, the players should be able to easily recognize that participating the game they want to play is the most rewarding part.

Size. Utility. Ease of use. And more.

Great.

So an Airship that can hold 20 people and 1 ton of goods, with a crew of 10, that can fly at 8 mph costs 20,000 gold.

A Galley which can only work in the oceans or sea, with 80 crew and 150 tons of cargo space and moves at 4 mpg costs 30,000 gp.

These are exact prices.

A magic carpet that can carry 1 - 2 people (depending on size), 200 lbs to 800 lbs (depending on size), and can move from 20 mph to 54 mph (depending on size) costs... between 5,000 and 50,000 gp. Because it is impossible to put an exact price on it? It could be a 1/4 of the cost of an airship that can transport more people and goods or more than double the price.

Think about that for a second. That is like saying that an Ford Truck has a specific price, and a speed bike doesn't but it is anywhere from a fraction of the cost to double the cost of the Truck. That is nonsense. And they clearly felt comfortable pricing "flying anywhere in the world at double the speed" to the "slower and more limited, but far more cargo space" in the pricing between the Galley and the Airship. And, they didn't consult with the thousand and one details of everyone's individuals campaigns and whether or not that price would be appropriate or not.