D&D 5E Sane Magic Item Prices

Chaosmancer

Legend
I didn't break the rules, I just took the rukes for lowering HP with a sword and made it raise HP.

That is a gross mischaracterization of what I'm talking about. It took the rules for selling a thing, and I acted as though I was selling that thing. There was no inverse of the math, just a change from who was receiving the money. You might as well tell me I did something wrong because I took the damage from a longsword against an NPC and applied that same damage to a player.

In the real world I cannot sell almost anything for what a store does. A d the cost of selling stuff in a store, quite often the cost of the goods sold is not the majority of the cost (efficiency is highe now in this age of low friction commerce).

Really? So... how do stores sell things if it is impossible for people to sell things for the same price of the store is selling them for? Do they operate under different physics? Are there not humans who are selling things at stores?

What you are really talking about is that you, person in your basement, can't match the efficiency and infrastructure of a major distributor. And, there is nothing like that in DnD worlds. There is nothing at all listed for saying that spellcasters are part of a major, global organization that allows them to charge more or less for services. In fact, generally in DnD it is presented as... a single guy, possibly in their basement. Exactly the situation you are saying can't work.

The rules cover what PCs can expect to pay for spellcasting, roughly. Tge rukes do not say PCs can expect to find customers willing to pay that and at what rate.

Maybe that rate produces 1 customer per year for someone who sets up a wizard tower in a major city and is known throughout the lands. Then this matches the price PCs pay, but means selling such services is not very profitable.

Maybe the right to sell spells is predicated on providing spellcasting services to the state for free. And only with limited number of excess spells can you sell to3rd parties, for which you owe a 90% tithe. So the nobles aren't buying.

Again, PC prices look the same, but seli g sin't profitable.

"I just flipped the rules" does not mean you followed the rules.

And all of this is just attempts to say "No, you can't make that money, I can't allow it." But again, no one is telling me why. Why are you so terrified of PCs making significant money during downtime? What harm is this doing to the game? Why do you think we can't have an adventure if we happen to be wealthy?
 

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Chaosmancer

Legend
You're assuming with no rule to back you up, that sellers always completely sell out their product every day.

If I posted to these forums and said that we looted some bodies and sold four longswords, no one would tell me that I am making up rules that say I completely sell my product out every day. This is never an issue in the game, no one ever talks about selling loot as a problem because of supply and demand meaning that there are no buyers for leather armor and shortswords...

But now we need specific rules? Why? Was my number just too big? Is a 1,160 gold truly so tremendous that I am threatening to ruin the world by making it over the course of a month, instead of going and killing a moderately sized troll in a day? (Boss Trolls like the Venom Troll or Dire Troll could qualify for level 5-10 Treasure Hoard status, which includes approximately 2,000 gold on top of 7,000 silver, 700 copper, 105 platinum, gems and potential magic items)

First, most nobles just eat, drink and be merry. They don't do those things. Second, the ones that spar rarely get hurt by it. Third, the ones that explode from alchemy mishaps rarely do so and generally have potions of healing to fix themselves. They're ALCHEMISTS. Fourth, hunting accidents are also pretty darned rare. Fifth, even the few that do hurt themselves aren't just going to spontaneously show up in front of you needing YOUR help. There are other healers, including friends of theirs to do the job.

Convenient. They don't do the things nobility is famous for, if they do they don't get injured doing those things, and if they do need healing, then they won't need it from you.

Just like how when there is a goblin incursion in the sewers it is handled by the guards, it makes no sense to go and hire complete strangers who have been wandering the countryside.

Again, you are just trying to find reasons to say no.

First, see above on multiple people to do the job. Second, doctors also treat commoners and charge less money. They also treat people with colds, flus, etc. Your False Equivalence is noted.

Colds and Flus? Those sound like diseases. Lesser Restoration cures diseases. That seems to be 1 to 1. I mean, sure, a doctor might cure them with a weeks worth of medicine, but the cleric can do it in... 6 seconds.

And, you know there are people between commoners who don't have money, and nobles who have all the money. Like... doctors, merchants, ect.

Your attempts to dismiss my point with no evidence or consideration for what I am saying is noted.

Cool. I don't have to agree with the PDF. The author seems not to have bothers to consider that people in the world would already have done this sort of thing if it's that worthwhile. He's probably not the kind of DM who runs a living, breathing world.

And yet, the same logic he used seems to run rampant through you. So, when you get done patting yourself on the back for how amazing of a DM you are, how about we address the question I've asked repeatedly here.

I missed one detail that changes nothing about the answer. Sorry about that.

Changes nothing about the answer? It makes your accusations of the cleric forcing the other players to sit on their thumbs and do nothing completely nonsensical. You accusations of "why aren't you adventuring" don't even apply.

And yet, that was exactly where your mind went. You saw "making significant money" and immediately began accusations of me wanting to not adventure. Why is "I'm making money" a sign post of "I don't want to adventure"?

I've asked you two or three times now, and you keep ignoring the question. Why is this the dichotomy people keep putting forth? Why does making money mean I can't possible want to or be capable of adventuring? Is making money the only possible reason for adventure you can think of?
 

CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
Yes it is. Magic items aren't bought and sold enough to have a standard price. You might find a Ring of Protection for 8,000 in one city being sold by a merchant, and for 13,500 in another being a family heirloom a noble is selling to pay debts. Circumstances will differ from sale to sale which impact the price. You're going to be more accurate choosing the price than a book will.
This is probably the only satisfactory way to handle it. And before folks start gearing up for an argument, by 'Satisfactory' I mean "in a way that will work for the wide majority of games."

The DM understands the economy of their game far better than anyone else does. The DM understands how much magic is needed in their game world, and how easy it should be to acquire. The DM knows that abundant potions and scrolls can affect the pacing of the story, and might need to make adjustments from time to time.

I think that's why the DMG provides a very small table with very broad ranges: the rules assume the DM knows what they are doing.
 

NotAYakk

Legend
No, as a scavenger, you generally can't get 15 gp for a longsword.

You could set up a longsword store snd wait a few months for buyers to come by.

You could go to a longsword shop and try to sell yours, but they won't buy them for 15 gp; they intend to sell them for 15 gp, and buying them for the ssme price is dumb.

If you find a place desperate for longswords, maybe you get 15 gp; heck, maybe you get 30 or 40.

The guy in the basement? He isn't selling his spells when he wants to. He is selling them when a customer arrives.

If that guy does have a system to sell spells on demand, he has a business that lines up clients. Those clients are going to be curated, there is going to be sales help, etc. It will be a business, and it will involve spending money to make money. At the limit, finding the buyer of the last spell slot/day can cost 1 gp less than they charge for it.

The rules describe what a PC adventuring type can find for sale and what they oay for it. Using those rules as how much they can make by selling the same goods and services is stupid and simplistic and unrealistic.

Realistic rules result in boredom and more accounting than I prefer. Story first ideas work. Naive rules to quickly clear loot is ok (you sell the weapons for 1/4 face value). If it scales, more effort has to go into it.

And part of it is what kind of story the DM and otber players want to tell. Is it about an adventure, or a business wizard who adventures in the side?

The rules state what you can spend gold on, they don't state you can gain the same gold by doing the opposite. No more than you can pick up an angel's sword and do 2d12+4d8 damage. It isn't realistic, it generates warped incentives, and it isn't what those rules are for. I mean, commoner railgun, economic version.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
If I posted to these forums and said that we looted some bodies and sold four longswords, no one would tell me that I am making up rules that say I completely sell my product out every day. This is never an issue in the game, no one ever talks about selling loot as a problem because of supply and demand meaning that there are no buyers for leather armor and shortswords...
My players have had that problem in smaller towns. Not everyone has a weapon/armor shop and the local general store isn't going to pay you for them. Also, from the rules... " Weapons and armor used by monsters are rarely in good enough condition to sell."

The vast majority of the time you aren't even going to be able to sell swords and leather armor looted from bodies. Personally, I ignore that rule for my game.
But now we need specific rules? Why? Was my number just too big? Is a 1,160 gold truly so tremendous that I am threatening to ruin the world by making it over the course of a month, instead of going and killing a moderately sized troll in a day? (Boss Trolls like the Venom Troll or Dire Troll could qualify for level 5-10 Treasure Hoard status, which includes approximately 2,000 gold on top of 7,000 silver, 700 copper, 105 platinum, gems and potential magic items)
As I've stated multiple times so far, this is because of common sense. It doesn't make sense for all of those things to align just right every freaking day. If you don't care about that, more power to you. Have fun.
Convenient. They don't do the things nobility is famous for, if they do they don't get injured doing those things, and if they do need healing, then they won't need it from you.
Nobility is not famous for hunting every day and unless there is a tournament going on, you aren't going to have a lot of serious injuries that will need magic.
Again, you are just trying to find reasons to say no.
Well, here it is again. NO. You are wrong with that statement and will always be wrong with that statement. I don't try to find reasons to say no. Period.
Colds and Flus? Those sound like diseases. Lesser Restoration cures diseases. That seems to be 1 to 1. I mean, sure, a doctor might cure them with a weeks worth of medicine, but the cleric can do it in... 6 seconds.
Only an idiot is going to pay a bunch of gold to get over a cold or minor flu, which the vast majority are. There are better ways to spend several months savings than on a cold of flu.

An unskilled worker makes 2sp a day, IF working. Assuming a 5 day work week, that person is only making 4 gold a month, and has to pay living expenses out of that.

Even a skilled worker is only making 40g a month, so to pay 50g to have you cure a 24-48 hour flu is moronic.
And yet, the same logic he used seems to run rampant through you. So, when you get done patting yourself on the back for how amazing of a DM you are, how about we address the question I've asked repeatedly here.
Which question haven't I answered? I can pat myself on the back and answer you at the same time. Multitasking!
Changes nothing about the answer? It makes your accusations of the cleric forcing the other players to sit on their thumbs and do nothing completely nonsensical. You accusations of "why aren't you adventuring" don't even apply.
Changes nothing about how much you could make.
I've asked you two or three times now, and you keep ignoring the question. Why is this the dichotomy people keep putting forth? Why does making money mean I can't possible want to or be capable of adventuring? Is making money the only possible reason for adventure you can think of?
Um. I already said I missed that it was downtime. If it's downtime, okay. It's downtime.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
This is probably the only satisfactory way to handle it. And before folks start gearing up for an argument, by 'Satisfactory' I mean "in a way that will work for the wide majority of games."

The DM understands the economy of their game far better than anyone else does. The DM understands how much magic is needed in their game world, and how easy it should be to acquire. The DM knows that abundant potions and scrolls can affect the pacing of the story, and might need to make adjustments from time to time.

I think that's why the DMG provides a very small table with very broad ranges: the rules assume the DM knows what they are doing.
Not just the economy, but the circumstances around the sale/purchase. A wealthy noble is probably going to be asking for more gold to buy his heirloom Ring of Invisibility than the desperate merchant that needs gold right not to pay off the loan sharks who are going to have him killed in 3 days if they don't have their money.
 

Oofta

Legend
All I can say is that I don't want to run a game nor play "businessmen and tradesmen".

People earn their keep in downtime but all profits are put back into the business. God's do not grant power so their clerics can get rich, they grant them power to further the god's goals.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
This is probably the only satisfactory way to handle it. And before folks start gearing up for an argument, by 'Satisfactory' I mean "in a way that will work for the wide majority of games."

The DM understands the economy of their game far better than anyone else does. The DM understands how much magic is needed in their game world, and how easy it should be to acquire. The DM knows that abundant potions and scrolls can affect the pacing of the story, and might need to make adjustments from time to time.

I think that's why the DMG provides a very small table with very broad ranges: the rules assume the DM knows what they are doing.

That is a dangerous assumption in my opinion, and it often leaves newer DMs with no idea what to do. As I have seen first hand.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
That is a dangerous assumption in my opinion, and it often leaves newer DMs with no idea what to do. As I have seen first hand.
Why would they have no idea what to do? I suggested that there would be a paragraph explaining what things to look for in figuring out a price. The newer DMs would have been taught by the DMG. WotC wouldn't leave them out to hang.
 


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