D&D 5E Sane Magic Item Prices

[Chaosmancer]

1: Because it does lead to "3e ish" desire from the PCs to buy their own magical items.

1a: The existence of a price list is a rational conclusion that a magical item market (shops, regular auctions, guild mandated price, something) exist. Otherwise, how were the prices determined, in world? Value is determined by something, and that something is usually the market. I'm in a home right now. I could give you every detail of the home itself, and you would not be able to tell me its value... until you knew where the home was, then you could look up the market and see how much similar homes are being sold for in this part of town.

1b: Therefore, players will rationally conclude that such conditions exist.

1c: However, it is highly questionable that the existence of such a market does make sense. After all... who's paying for these magical items? Who keeps a price list?

How much is a jade statue from the Ming Dynasty of China worth? There is probably an exact price, and a way to determine it. Just like we know that a gold cup set with emeralds is worth 7,500 gp in the game.

People do buy and sell things. That doesn't mean that there is a shop, that means there is a "marketplace". Money is a medium of exchange, and maybe the prices do fluctuate a lot... but know that there is an elderly wizard who is willing to part with his old battle staff for 100,000 gp to the party, and whether or not that makes sense, is a useful metric. Sure, the guy would rather leave it in his will for his granddaughter, but she took up with some bards and she isn't going to be using it, and he needs the money to make sure her dowry is taken care of.

Things have a value. Knowing that value is important, especially since a set standard of value would have been developed. You can say the Mona Lisa is priceless, but it was valued at $850 million for insurance purposes.

2b: Rational pricing of magical item is questionable because the utility of items is very specific and very circumstantial. Of course, a +2 weapon is worth more than a +1 weapon... but is a bag of holding worth more or less than a +1 shield?

This is tricky, but this is also why the range of prices for rarity levels make so little sense.

3: It is up to the GM yes, but player expectations is a thing that exists.

Sure, they exist, but that doesn't change the utility that the DM can get from having a more steady pricing tool to utilize. Because, one thing that we aren't acknowleding is that if you want to indicate that an item is going cheap or is worth more becuase of its history... you really can't do that currently. Aladdin's magic carpet should be more expensive than just any old magic carpet, but if you say it is worth 30,000 gp, when the price is 5,000 to 50,000... is that more or less than a normal magic carpet? How could you tell?

 

[Oofta]

Ignoring most of the pointless blathering, let's bring it back to the original topic.

Since the original author hasn't responded to the thread, is there anyone that would be wanting to pick up the torch to update and revise the list for those that want a utility-based pricing system?

The issue with utility is utility for whom and what is the cost to create the item. A Timex and a Rolex have the same utility but vastly different cost. A Decanter of Endless Water could be expensive simply because it's incredibly difficult to craft.

Is a flame tongue longsword significantly better or worse than a +1 longsword or a +2 dagger? Depends on who's buying. How you want to organize (I just do by rarity because it's as good as anything) is going to be pretty arbitrary.

I think if you're going to attempt it though, you'll have to come up with some general categories first and then come up with a system to put items in categories. Categories could be something like common, uncommon, rare and so on ... which sounds an awful lot like what we have right now. Except of course you'd put things in different categories based on preference.

 

[billd91]

Does anyone remember what the 2e crafting rules involved? Tons of hunting for rare and arbitrary ingredients followed by repeated castings of spells just to make a single +1 weapon. I’m surprised anyone bothered.

By and large, PCs probably didn't. Then 3e came along that made crafting an easy thing to administer by the rules and all hell broke loose (in item creating behavior).
That's also where we learned that the prices set in the 3e DMG had a lot of problems and that trying to base prices on equivalent utility was... difficult... at best.

 

[smetzger]

1) I think having prices is a good thing. Purpose of the DMG and books is to aid the DM with running a game. It is very difficult to price magic items. If you ever want to trade, make, sell, or buy magic items in a game having suggested prices is a help to the DM.

2) Suggested guidance on how to use the prices would also be good. With explanation of the consequences of the different choices.

3) If some people want a lighter less immersive game that includes magic shops this is not 'bad, wrong, fun'.

4) If some people want magic items to be completely mysterious, never allow a PC to know how to make one, and they are never for sale. That also is not 'bad, wrong, fun'. It seems this thread is not for this type of game.

5) If some people want a game that is somewhere in-between #3 and #4 that also is not 'bad, wrong, fun'.

I would like to see more discussion of #2 and less discussion of how magic item costs is not a good thing for the game.

 

[Maxperson]

Also, eventually, you ARE giving out those large sums of money. Remember that Troll hoard I mentioned? Single day making over 2,000 gold? With that amount of money the party could easily hire 50 mercenaries for a few days, it only costs 100 per day for that many if you are using the Skilled Hireling rules. Which, you won't do and you will charge more, if your players even attempt it, which they probably don't because it isn't worth the boredom of not being able to play the game.

Actually, I WOULD use the skilled hireling rule, which means it WOULD cost more. A company of mercenaries would include corporals to manage squads, sergeants to manage the corporals, a lieutenant and a captain. The skilled hireling rules specify very clearly that the 2gp price is the MINIMUM, so those others would be more and the officers considerably more. Base mercenaries don't just hang around to be hired. They are groups.

Ah, but you said "free money" which brings me to a second point. What is free money? Is figuring out the average daily intake from working as a blacksmith with my passive blacksmithing proficiency somehow "more free" than looting the corpse of a mindflayer? I don't even know how that mindflayer died, it could have been far easier than the 8 hours of smithing work I put in.

Yes. A riskless roll to just get money for sitting around is more free than going into the very, VERY highly risky underdark and happening across a mindflayer body. Not only could there be other mindflayers around, but whatever manage to kill it is probably also in the area. Have fun with that. Actually, it would be fun, but hardly free.

Generally, it seems that DMs have an aversion to "free" money, because it is safe. No chance of player death or maiming. Which circles me back to the top of my posts in this thread. 1) Pricing certain magical items at insanely high prices solely to prevent money exploits is bad design and 2) There is no need to fear "free" money, as long as your players have a motivation beyond profit. You can have a player or two whose motivation is profit, but much like Han Solo could have made far more money turning in Lea and Luke than fighting with them, the players should be able to easily recognize that participating the game they want to play is the most rewarding part.

It's good for Luke and Leia that he 1) hated the empire with a passion, and 2) had a crush on Leia that turned into love.

So an Airship that can hold 20 people and 1 ton of goods, with a crew of 10, that can fly at 8 mph costs 20,000 gold.

A Galley which can only work in the oceans or sea, with 80 crew and 150 tons of cargo space and moves at 4 mpg costs 30,000 gp.

These are exact prices.

A magic carpet that can carry 1 - 2 people (depending on size), 200 lbs to 800 lbs (depending on size), and can move from 20 mph to 54 mph (depending on size) costs... between 5,000 and 50,000 gp. Because it is impossible to put an exact price on it? It could be a 1/4 of the cost of an airship that can transport more people and goods or more than double the price.

The carpet is faster, can be carried with a group(though still bulky), doesn't require a hired crew and is more maneuverable. That makes it much better for an adventuring group.

The carpet also has a specific price, which you the DM give it. The DMG gives 5000-50000gp as the range for rare items, not for flying carpets. Where in that range it specifically falls is part of 5e's mantra of rulings over rules and is for the DM to decide. He should have a good idea based on other rare items. Weaker rare items fall towards the 5k end of the range. Stronger, better items fall towards the 50k end of the range. Middle strength items? You guessed it. Around the 25k area of the range. It's not rocket science.

You also need to get a galley with better gas mileage.

 

[Maxperson]

This thread is about utility-based pricing for magic items. Go make your own thread.

I base my prices on the utility of the items.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

I base my prices on the utility of the items.

Then please give the examples I asked for earlier. Just forget about whether is on a lonely island, desert, big city or the underdark. How much should those items cost, based on their utility for a classic adventuring party (which basically is the only thing of interst for the purposes of this thread)?

 

[Maxperson]

Like I said earlier, the pricing can be fully meta, i.e. I want to improve my weapon. DM: okay, you can choose x at this amount of gold, or y for that amount or z for the same amount as x costs. Player then chooses.
No magic shoppes needed. No loss of control for DM.

How is that different from, "The shop has a sword that does X at this amount of gold, a sword that does Y for that amount and a sword that does Z for the same as the price of X." and then the player chooses?

 

[Maxperson]

Then please give the examples I asked for earlier. Just forget about whether is on a lonely island, desert, big city or the underdark. How much should those items cost, based on their utility for a classic adventuring party (which basically is the only thing of interst for the purposes of this thread)?

So you do realize that utility will change based on location, right? A flying carpet in the underdark bazaar is going to cost you less than the heirloom one for sale in the desert by a noble who wants a bit of extra cash, but doesn't really need it, because the utility is going to be less that the one in the desert and a merchant who needs the money and has no attachment and the noble doesn't need the money and has an attachment. The desert carpet will cost more based on utility, but also based on circumstances. A well run game should consider both.

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

How is that different from, "The shop has a sword that does X at this amount of gold, a sword that does Y for that amount and a sword that does Z for the same as the price of X." and then the player chooses?

It's not different. But some people apparently have serious issues with gold being converted into mechanical benefits by just going shopping, not to mention having severe difficulties accepting magic items being for sale because it's not realistic or something in a fantasy world and the DM will loose all control, soon seeing his campaign dissolve into anarchy and chaos.
Just being meta about converting gold to items (thus creating an actual use for gold that the DM is supposed to handle out by following tables etc, for parties not interested in downtime or playing most of the WotC adventures) might alleviate some of those fears.