Saying "yes" to players; also, turning cross-class skills into class skills

[Nareau]

I'm starting my first Pathfinder campaign next weekend, and one of my players has an unusual request: He wants to play a monk whose primary stat is Cha instead of Wis, and who has a mostly-rogue skill list.

I'm OK with the stat-swapping. If anything, putting points into Cha instead of Wis seems like a suboptimal choice (as Wis benefits his Will save, and Cha doesn't).

But the skill-swapping rubs me the wrong way. Other players are taking cross-class skills, so why should I let him cherry-pick only the skills he wants? It amounts to giving him a +3 to a half-dozen skills. That seems especially unfair when he could very easily wait and take a level in rogue to gain those benefits.

What would you do in this situation? Let the player bend the rules so he can play exactly the character he wants? Or force him to find a way within the rules to do it?

My inclination is to look for other ways (traits, feats, etc) in which he could play a pure monk, but also add most of the desired skills to his class list. Do such options exist?

Here's the list of skills he wants to have as a monk:
[sblock]Linguistics
Disguise
Bluff
Acrobatics
Stealth
Diplomacy
Sleight-of-hand
Perception
Escape Artist
Knowledge (Local)
Profession
Knowledge (Nobility)
Appraise
Intimidate[/sblock]

 

[Glade Riven]

Yeaaaahhh...no. I'd say no to this. In fact, I'd download the ninja playtest from Paizo and tell him to play that if he wants to play a rogue/monk hybrid. Cha instead of Wis switch is mechanically okay, although how that would apply to his dodge bonus doesn't make story sense to me. I suppose that ability could be renamed "Not in the Face."

 

[sheadunne]

Does he want to add those skills or swap them out? Assuming swap . . .

Looks like the number of skill swaps is equal (8 lose, 8 keep, but depending on your type of game, it may have more or less impact). For instance, climb might be more useful of a skill than disguise, if you're playing a dungeon crawl type of game. I'd put craft back on the list and have him choose between bluff and diplomacy. I believe that all classes have craft so it's not a skill that should be swapped. The rest of the skills probably have minimal impact since the good ones are on both lists.

Lose
Climb
Craft
Knowledge (history)
Knowledge (religion)
Perform
Ride
Sense Motive
Swim

Gain
Appraise
Bluff
Diplomacy
Disguise
Knowledge (Local)
Knowledge (Nobility)
Linguistics
Sleight-of-hand

Keep
Acrobatics
Stealth
Perception
Escape Artist
Intimidate
Profession

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

Personally, I think folks get hung up on the whole "class" thing.

On the one hand, I'm fine with saying "yes" to an awful lot of player things. On the other hand, if you're making an exception for this player, that's not fair to the others.

If you've no problems with multiclassing (some GMs are really twitchy about it) then I'd say the player should simply multiclass. Rogue/monk if the player is focused on trying to get all the monk stuff, or Rogue/Fighter if the character is about being a "monk" but more in the sense of an unarmed fighter instead of an enlightened seeker.

The thing is that I don't really see "class" as being one of those things that people in the game world are aware of. "Class" is an artifical construction that D&D has in order to pre-package a bunch of skills and abilities together and try and keep them at a level that's "fair" for other skill/abilties packages (classes) as befits a game.

Messing around with skill swapping and all that is just going to be an annoyance. Let the player multiclass and call it good.

 

[IronWolf]

On the one hand, I'm fine with saying "yes" to an awful lot of player things. On the other hand, if you're making an exception for this player, that's not fair to the others.

Messing around with skill swapping and all that is just going to be an annoyance. Let the player multiclass and call it good.

I believe this is the way I would go as well. Over the years I have worked on saying yes more to players. But allowing skill swaps for one player opens the door to doing the same for other players. In my opinion that will quickly spiral into a mess.

I would likely tell the player no, that is a little to much customization and then present the multiclass option to the player showing them how they can work the skills they want by doing such a move. It keeps it closer to the defined ruleset while still allowing the player to end up with a concept he or she will be happy with.

 

[Crothian]

I would allow for one or two skills to be swapped and tell each player they can do that. I would then point out feats that make skills a class skill and traits that do it if you are using that system.

 

[Nareau]

I would allow for one or two skills to be swapped and tell each player they can do that. I would then point out feats that make skills a class skill and traits that do it if you are using that system.

Can you point out some feats and traits that do that? I haven't seen any yet.

 

[IronWolf]

Can you point out some feats and traits that do that? I haven't seen any yet.

Cosmopolitan might help.

Cosmopolitan - Pathfinder_OGC

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Yeaaaahhh...no. I'd say no to this. In fact, I'd download the ninja playtest from Paizo and tell him to play that if he wants to play a rogue/monk hybrid. Cha instead of Wis switch is mechanically okay, although how that would apply to his dodge bonus doesn't make story sense to me. I suppose that ability could be renamed "Not in the Face."

It sounds like he wants to play a character with more mystical skills than the playtest Ninja, which isn't unreasonable.

Multiclass Monk/Ninja Playtest. He already gets to choose which ability score determines his ki pool; give him a custom feat that allows him to use his Charisma for his AC bonus, and allows his Monk and Ninja levels to stack for, say, move speed and AC.

 

[Mojo_Rat]

I cannot name them specifically but there are traits to cover most skills and make them class skills plus cosmopolitan as mentioned. the new ultimate magic has a qigong monk archetype. Though what it does no one knows. but it's the only non spell casting class I'n the book I think.