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SCAG Thread

kalani

First Post
I see it as both. If it was just a realm's guide, and the only new character options were an extended list of deities, regional languages, ethnicities, and perhaps the backgrounds - I would have been fine for it to be an evergreen product. Unfortunately, the inclusion of new race, class, background and cantrip options makes it a splatbook as well - and as such, has an impact on power creep (no matter how small).

Who knows what unintentional (and potentially overpowered) combination might occur 3 years from now due to the combination of greenflame blade or the swashbuckler and some as-yet unreleased character option. That's how power creep works - by inches and degrees.

New products are not balanced against existing splatbooks (this becomes increasingly more difficult as the berth of existing content increases exponentially). They are however, balanced internally and with the options in the core books (PHB, DMG, etc). Sometimes a new product improves on existing designs (eg. the Scout vs. the PHB Ranger or the warblade vs. the fighter in 3.5), resulting in power creep compared to the PHB - and other times, it has unintended consequences when combined with another pre-existing option from a secondary source (splatbook, setting book, etc). Those consequences are compounded with each new option that can be plugged into an existing combination.

For Example
In the 3.5 era, I designed a character who could make up to 20+ attacks/round, most with full BaB. This character was a combat-reflexes monkey with the following feats and character options (Fighter 16/Psychic Warrior 2/Monk 2): Combat Reflexes, Hold the Line, Stand Still, Deft Opportunist, Double-Hit (Miniatures HB), Mage Slayer, Karmic Strike, Robilar's Gambit, Elusive Target, and several other feats I forget. The character fought with a chain lash (Savage Species), which allowed them to swap between reach and dual-wield options. With a magically enhanced 27 dexterity, I had up to 9 opportunity attacks/round (each of which were double-hits thanks to the Double-hit feat). Combined with my normal attack routine, I had a potential of: +16/+11/+6/+1, and 18x +16 (not counting STR or magical bonuses to hit).

The character was weak against ranged or flying targets, but was an absolute beast in melee. This is an example of the kinds of things that the Story Origin Mechanic was designed to prevent.
 
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Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
I believe we have a disconnect in how we're picturing the SCAG. I see it as the campaign guide we should have had at release (State of the Realms! Deities of the Realms! Realms-specific character options!). You see it as the first of many splatbooks.

Except that, for the purpose of storyline seasons, it doesn't really matter which of these SCAG turns out to be, given that nobody knows what the future is going to bring. Will there be a generic setting guide published at some future date? Will there not? Who knows?

Since nobody can tell what future products are going to be released, the question becomes, how does the book we have fit into the storyline season paradigm? I'm OK allowing the generic setting material, which is segregated in the book, to become 'evergreen'. The rest of the material needs to stay within the bounds of the storyline season concept, or that concept ceases to have a function short of 'Season 4 characters can't be reincarnated dragons'.

--
Pauper
 

sigfile

Explorer
Who knows what unintentional (and potentially overpowered) combination might occur 3 years from now due to the combination of greenflame blade or the swashbuckler and some as-yet unreleased character option. That's how power creep works - by inches and degrees.

Which the story origin mechanic will continue to address for so long as it continues. "Current season material" plus "common base material" will limit the amount of broken allowed in to the campaign at any point.

I simply believe the "common base material" ought to include the setting book for the campaign world our campaign uses.

Since nobody can tell what future products are going to be released, the question becomes, how does the book we have fit into the storyline season paradigm? I'm OK allowing the generic setting material, which is segregated in the book, to become 'evergreen'. The rest of the material needs to stay within the bounds of the storyline season concept, or that concept ceases to have a function short of 'Season 4 characters can't be reincarnated dragons'.

No, it doesn't, and that's ridiculous. Expanding the base neither invalidates the story origin mechanic nor suddenly opens the floodgates wide.
 

Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
No, it doesn't, and that's ridiculous. Expanding the base neither invalidates the story origin mechanic nor suddenly opens the floodgates wide.

Thank you for utterly missing the point, and thus excusing me from having to deal with your argument.
 

Mirtek

Hero
how does the book we have fit into the storyline season paradigm?
Why should it have to when it's not a stoyline related book? It just happened to be released shortly after OotA, but it's no more tied to it than the PHB
or that concept ceases to have a function short of 'Season 4 characters can't be reincarnated dragons'.
Well, that's a problem with the concept being based on a false assumption, aka that there would be storyline based rules options, when only 1/3 so far had any such options. Either S4+ will have options and thus valitdate the cpncept, or AL has to face the truth that the concept is meaningless and turly does not have any function short of 'Season 4 characters can't be reincarnated dragons'. But that's not the SCAG's fault since it's not part of any storyline but of the storylines not offering any content

Obviously WotC making weird decisions like putting the Deep Gnome, a great fit for Rage of Demons, into the Elemental Evil Player's Companion where it really has no special ties to current story and is actually not even in the PotA adventure, doesn't help strengthening the storyline concept's RP justification.
 
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Pauper

That guy, who does that thing.
Well, that's a problem with the concept being based on a false assumption, aka that there would be storyline based rules options,

That's not the campaign's assumption -- that's your assumption. Quoting the actual Content Manager for the campaign here:

Story origins are primarily a means of distinguishing characters from different seasons of play. A Tyranny of Dragons character should feel different than an Elemental Evil character should feel different than a Rage of Demons character. This might mean having different abilities, backgrounds, or even being a member of a different race. An EE character should have some local ties to the elements or the city of Mulmaster, while a RoD character should be a bit mad and have ties to the area surrounding Hillsfar.

Story Origins also (and to a *much* lesser degree) are a means of protactively addressing the very real potential of power-creep. In time, we may realize that these precautions aren’t necessary and get rid of the restrictions. But for now, it’s what we’ve got. Just because it prevents a player from making the exact character they want doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s an excessive or unnecessary rule; it means that we’re thinking ahead—that’s a good thing and something that Wizards is consistently accused of not doing.

Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?471088-SCAG-Thread/page7#ixzz3pzplVO53

But that's not the SCAG's fault since it's not part of any storyline but of the storylines not offering any content.

There is actually 'content' for each season -- what you want to do is say that RP 'content' in the form of backgrounds is fine to segregate (which speaks to the first point in the quote from the CM above), but that rules 'content' shouldn't be segregated (which is the entire reason the second point exists -- to pro-actively avoid power-creep).

What I'm saying is that if you do the first without also doing the second, you're communicating that your campaign isn't for role-players or people who want to engage with the story -- it's mainly for people who want to cook up broken characters and wreck tables. That's what I have a problem with, and that's why I'm hoping the campaign sticks to its guns about what the storyline season concept is supposed to represent.

--
Pauper
 

Mirtek

Hero
There is actually 'content' for each season -- what you want to do is say that RP 'content' in the form of backgrounds is fine to segregate (which speaks to the first point in the quote from the CM above), but that rules 'content' shouldn't be segregated (which is the entire reason the second point exists -- to pro-actively avoid power-creep).
What I am saying is that the SCAG is not content for any season, but content on it's own bereft of belonging to any season specifically.

You're right that there is content for any season, but except for S2 (and it's not as if S2 spells are not copied into S1 spellbooks left and right, either as treasure or simply from an S2 caster's spellbook which doesn't bother S2 casters much as gold and DT are also pretty meaningless so far) it's so marginally that it's effectively meaningless. I hardly see any background feature ever used at all (and what little there is in S1 and S3 can even be rebuilt from the PHB for the most part. So it's the minor part of a minor option that is specifically S1 and S3)
What I'm saying is that if you do the first without also doing the second,
What I am saying is that we only have 1 of 3 season actually featuring the second in a meaninful way

you're communicating that your campaign isn't for role-players or people who want to engage with the story
Well, then we should just do away with the first too, as the snirvneblin is cleary attached to EE without any reason while being so much better for role-players in RoD
 
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kalani

First Post
This is a common misunderstanding. All story origins are still legal. You can still make EE and ToD characters, and next season - you will still be able to make RoD characters (past story origins are listed in the back of the player's guide).
 


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