Scimitar Dance + Frost Weapons

[Herobizkit]

I'm inclined to agree that the Cold modifier to a standard weapon is a benefit, and thus would not be included in the damage for Scimitar Dance. Therefore, I'd also rule that the Dex damage would not also be Cold damage.

 

[Iron Sky]

Twin Strike is a weapon power as well, the one that Scimitar Dance is most commonly modifying.

Just playing devil's advocate. I'm really not sure which way this one goes. Problem is, arguments both ways make sense...

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Twin Strike is a weapon power as well, the one that Scimitar Dance is most commonly modifying.

Just playing devil's advocate. I'm really not sure which way this one goes. Problem is, arguments both ways make sense...

Twin Strike is a power, so I don't see how that has anything to do with this. So is Sweeping Blow, which would do DEX mod on a miss. Powers aren't "benefits" in that sense, it's just describing how an attack works.

As for a cold weapon though, it's changing the properties of your weapon, in this case a Scimitar (and while I don't have the book in front of me, I'm sure it's "At-Will", but it's doing something different than Twin Strike is).

Now, seeing as the description for cold weapon says it's adding the cold keyword to all damage done by the weapon, and the Scimitar Dance feat doesn't allow benefits or modifiers to weapon damage, I'd say it doesn't work.

As for the explanation for why the weapon doesn't deal cold damage on a miss, but does on a hit, that's simple...basically, the power misfired. You tried to imbue with arcane energies to create a magical cold effect and kill your enemy with it, but it just didn't work. Instead, the power fizzled and you only managed to graze him.

When powers miss they just don't work, otherwise you might be able to trigger vulnerability just by missing with a cold based power/weapon! And yes, I realize that you have to do damage in order to trigger my vulnerability, that's just my point. They didn't want you having access to abilities that allow you take advantage of vulnerabilities whether you hit or miss, and that's just what you're trying to do here. Just take your extra DEX damage and be happy with it...

 

[Iron Sky]

Well put Doctor.

We haven't been doing the cold damage since we all agree it's cheesy. I'm more than happy with my Dex damage (especially since we're using rolled stats so I got to start with 18 Str AND 20 Dex AND 17 Wis).

Something similar came up another time (whose specifics I forget), so I thought I'd get outside input.

 

[DracoSuave]

Well, remember... 'weapon damage' is specificly the [W] portion of damage. It is not 'all damage dealt with a weapon' but specifically something that is a specific entry on the weapons tables.

So, modifiers to weapon damage does not mean modifiers to all damage dealt with a weapon power, in the same sense that modifiers to poison damage is not the same as modifiers to all damage dealt by a poison power.

The modifier to damage as per Frost weapons on top of that is weapon-keyword agnostic; it also works when you use that weapon as an implement... and yet none of the damage of that implement is considered 'weapon damage'.

Let's say you have a druid packing a Frost Staff. You can use that Frost Staff to make your druid melee powers cold powers, even if they are implement based. The frost power is not a modifier to weapon damage but a modifier to damage in general, which is perfectly permissible.

 

[BobTheNob]

This is a difficult one. Feat and power synergies are meant to work. At first I didnt like wintertouched/lastingfrost/frost weapon because it sounded such a cheeseball mis-interpretation of intention, and this is just a further extension of it.

Howver, take for instance Arcane Admixture. Sure, it adds another damage type to an existing power (giving it better DR penetration) but its more than that. It allows counter synergy against other abilities. Put thunder damage on scorching burst then (using that feat that expands thunder power radius, cant remember its name) expand the radius for a burst 2 at-will. This is exactly what the designers intended, not only that feats can give benefits, but that they also can interact with other feats to create interesting effects.

Im not quite sure which way to go with your scenario. I dont find RAW or RAI clear on this point. It seems cheeseball, but I also get the feeling it might not be. At the end of the day, the end effect has a hefty fee (3 feats and requirement to use a very particular weapon, precluding the chance to use other weapons) and combine that with designer intention that feats are meant to synergise, Im almost inclined to pay it.

I just cant stop the cheeseball alarm going of in the back of my head. Bag of Rats?

 

[Saeviomagy]

This is a difficult one. Feat and power synergies are meant to work.

Even when one of the two specifically says "nothing else works with this"?

 

[Nifft]

Let's say you have a druid packing a Frost Staff. You can use that Frost Staff to make your druid melee powers cold powers, even if they are implement based. The frost power is not a modifier to weapon damage but a modifier to damage in general, which is perfectly permissible.

1/ There's no such thing as a Frost Staff. There's a Frost Quarterstaff, but that's a weapon, not a Staff Implement.

2/ Even if you were able to use a weapon as an implement (as some classes are), you would only gain access to that weapon's Enhancement, Critical and Property lines -- not its powers.

So... would you like to rephrase?

Cheers, -- N

 

[DracoSuave]

1/ There's no such thing as a Frost Staff. There's a Frost Quarterstaff, but that's a weapon, not a Staff Implement.

All Quarterstaffs are staffs (check the weapon table) and can be used as such. Are you going to claim that a Vicious Dagger can't be used as a light blade implement? No? Alright. Continuing on then.

2/ Even if you were able to use a weapon as an implement (as some classes are), you would only gain access to that weapon's Enhancement, Critical and Property lines -- not its powers.

Staff is a defined weapon group. Wizards can explicitly use staff as an implement. It's no different than the case of Swordmages or Sorcerers... with the exception that there is an specific item type called Staves which carry enchantments that use the rules for implement-proficiency for their powers.

Also, those Staves count as Quarterstaffs. So are you claiming that the implement can be used as a weapon of an explicitly stated type, but that the weapon cannot be used as an implement of an explicitly stated type? That the word 'staff' in the weapons list somehow does not refer to 'staff' as in the wizard list? And that somehow, 'heavy blade' can be used this way without problems, but 'staff' is magically different?

Quote the rule for this, son. But, the FAQ is quite clear: Weapon Focus in Staff works with implement powers. That's the example they give.

Further, I checked the sections of the PHB on Powers, and Weapons. I noticed that no part of these text state that the powers of a magical weapon can only be used with Weapon powers.

Could you please find that for me?

Lastly, I give as example the daggers made for a sorcerer, which, if it were as you claimed, would never work. Specifically the one that alters odd/even stuff. Sorcerers don't have weapon powers... if it were as you said, a weapon (Tooth of Chaos, as an example) that specifically modifies sorcerer powers would not work.

So, your idea that powers on weapons don't work on implement powers is bunk, and defeated by the existance of weapon powers that are designed to do exactly that.

So... would you like to rephrase?

Cheers, -- N

No, good sir, I don't believe I will rephrase anything.

Even when one of the two specifically says "nothing else works with this"?

It doesn't say that.

It says 'Nothing that modifies weapon damage works with this.'

That's a completely different, and far less inclusive statement.

 

[Nifft]

Also, those Staves count as Quarterstaffs. So are you claiming that the implement can be used as a weapon of an explicitly stated type, but that the weapon cannot be used as an implement of an explicitly stated type?

I'm claiming that the implement Staff is a different critter than the weapon Quarterstaff, even if the implement Staff can be used as a Quarterstaff weapon (due to a specific rule saying that it can).

For one thing, a Staff implement is one-handed, while a Quarterstaff weapon is two-handed. Can you cite a rule which allows me to use a Fullblade as a one-handed implement -- or cite a rule which prevents me from doing that?

You can't, because the rules are incomplete in this area.

Lastly, I checked the sections of the PHB on Powers, and Weapons. I noticed that no part of these text state that the powers of a magical weapon can only be used with Weapon powers.

Could you please find that for me?

Since you said "please", I'm happy to provide.

Question #16, from the FAQ for the Player's Handbook, right here: FAQ for the Player's Handbook!

Cheers, -- N