Scimitar Dance + Frost Weapons

[Nifft]

Lastly, I give as example the daggers made for a sorcerer, which, if it were as you claimed, would never work. Specifically the one that alters odd/even stuff. Sorcerers don't have weapon powers... if it were as you said, a weapon (Tooth of Chaos, as an example) that specifically modifies sorcerer powers would not work.

Power (Daily): Free Action. Trigger: You hit an enemy with a sorcerer attack power using this dagger. Effect: Whenever you hit that enemy with a sorcerer attack power before the end of the encounter, you can treat your attack roll as even or odd.

It's a specific power which overrides a general rule.

4e has a lot of those, so you should get used to them. As specific exceptions, they can't be used to make points about general rules.

Cheers, -- N

 

[DracoSuave]

It's a specific power which overrides a general rule.

4e has a lot of those, so you should get used to them. As specific exceptions, they can't be used to make points about general rules.

Cheers, -- N

How so? The power doesn't say it works with implement powers, nor does it contradict the rule you claim exists.

It could, in theory, work with sorcerer implement powers. However, you'll notice, it does not say that, only that it works with sorcerer powers, therefore, if your rule is correct, it would work only with sorcerer weapon powers.

No contradiction here exists so specific vs general does not apply.

The problem is, you still have to prove your rule exists.

What page is it from? Which book? Are you certain this rule exists? I want to see it.

 

[Nifft]

the rule you claim exists. (...)

The problem is, you still have to prove your rule exists.

What page is it from? Which book? Are you certain this rule exists? I want to see it.

Seriously?

I gave you a link, and I told you the question number on that page.

-- N

 

[DracoSuave]

I'm claiming that the implement Staff is a different critter than the weapon Quarterstaff, even if the implement Staff can be used as a Quarterstaff weapon (due to a specific rule saying that it can).

For one thing, a Staff implement is one-handed, while a Quarterstaff weapon is two-handed. Can you cite a rule which allows me to use a Fullblade as a one-handed implement -- or cite a rule which prevents me from doing that?

The handedness of a weapon has nothing to do with wielding that item as an implement. One is the rules for using a weapon as a weapon, handedness does apply. The other is using an implement, which only requires that you hold it.

But, do notice question 17 from the source you mentioned:

17. I am using a weapon as an implement, like a long sword for a Wizard of the Spiral Tower or a Quarterstaff as a staff implement, do I gain the extra damage from feats like Weapon Focus?

Yes, you do gain this bonus to damage.

-------

So by the very source you mention, Quarterstaves can, in fact, be used as an implement.

Thanks for finding that for me!

You can't, because the rules are incomplete in this area.

Since you said "please", I'm happy to provide.

Question #16, from the FAQ for the Player's Handbook, right here: FAQ for the Player's Handbook!

Cheers, -- N

16. When you are using a magic weapon as an implement, like a Holy Avenger or a Pact Dagger, what benefits do you get from the weapon?

You gain any bonuses listed under Enhancement, Critical and Property.

Notice something here.

1) Nothing in the answer addresses the powers of that weapon. It does not say you cannot use powers of a weapon.

2) It only refers to bonuses. Powers are not bonuses, so an inclusive list of legal bonuses is not refering in any way to powers.

So, I ask you again. Please point out where powers of weapons are restricted solely to weapon powers. I have found no such restriction.


------------------

also, sent to CS:

Let's say I have a Frost Weapon enchantment on my Fullblade, and I am a swordmage. I then use the at-will power of the Frost Fullblade to make all damage done by it cold damage.

If I do this, does this change the damage of my implement powers that I use with the Fullblade, or just the weapon powers?

And if only the weapon powers, why is that?

Does this change if I'm a Druid with a Frost Staff?

And if powers on weapons can only be used with weapon powers, then how does a Tooth of Chaos work, exactly?

********************
Book Name: Player's Handbook

 

[Nifft]

They did make Quarterstaff into a Staff implement.

Thank you, I hadn't noticed that.

16. When you are using a magic weapon as an implement, like a Holy Avenger or a Pact Dagger, what benefits do you get from the weapon?

You gain any bonuses listed under Enhancement, Critical and Property.

Notice something here.

1) Nothing in the answer addresses the powers of that weapon. It does not say you cannot use powers of a weapon.

Yes, it does. It lists all the benefits that you get, and powers are not in that list.

2) It only refers to bonuses. Powers are not bonuses, so an inclusive list of legal bonuses is not refering in any way to powers.

Actually, the question refers to benefits, which powers are. So, you don't get them -- unless the power specifically says otherwise, of course.

The FAQ list also doesn't list Proficiency bonus. So, you don't get that either.

Good luck with CustServ.

-- N

 

[abyssaldeath]

Yes, it does. It lists all the benefits that you get, and powers are not in that list.

Actually, the question refers to benefits, which powers are. So, you don't get them -- unless the power specifically says otherwise, of course.

Items powers are treated in the exact same manner as any other power you have.

In general, magic item powers follow the same rules
as other powers (in that they have ranges, shapes, and so
forth). See “How to Read a Power,” page 54, for details.

Since item powers follow the same rules as all your other powers you do what the power tell you. If it say when you attack with this then weapon then it works as a weapon or an implement. If it say when you make a melee attack then it only works when you make a melee attack.

 

[FireLance]

also i find it hard to justify that the damage yu deal on hit is all cold (no slashing) but if you just barely hit it does slashing damage. (untyped).

If I needed to justify it, I would say that the extra damage on a miss is not slashing but fatigue - your opponent gets tired dodging your weapon even if you don't scratch him, making it easier to defeat him afterwards.

In 4e, losing hit points doesn't necessarily mean sustaining physical injury, after all.

This might require some creative description for the occasional instances when the damage dealt on a miss drops a nonminion opponent to below 0 hit points - perhaps the opponent lost his balance while dodging, fell, and hit his head on a rock, he fumbles badly when attempting to parry your attack and impales himself on his own weapon, etc.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

If I needed to justify it, I would say that the extra damage on a miss is not slashing but fatigue - your opponent gets tired dodging your weapon even if you don't scratch him, making it easier to defeat him afterwards.

In 4e, losing hit points doesn't necessarily mean sustaining physical injury, after all.

This might require some creative description for the occasional instances when the damage dealt on a miss drops a nonminion opponent to below 0 hit points - perhaps the opponent lost his balance while dodging, fell, and hit his head on a rock, he fumbles badly when attempting to parry your attack and impales himself on his own weapon, etc.

That's another good way to describe to describe damage on a miss. In that case, you can easily make a good argument that Frost wouldn't apply because you're not even hitting the guy, just wearing him down (speaking purely about the fluff that is). However, do note that minions never take damage from a miss. They can only be killed with a hit or straight up damage from something like a zone or a stance. Basically, it's one of those little tweaks they did to make sure things like Reaping Strike don't become auto minion killers whether you hit or miss.

 

[Saeviomagy]

It doesn't say that.

It says 'Nothing that modifies weapon damage works with this.'

That's a completely different, and far less inclusive statement.

Maybe so, but the argument was that feats and powers are supposed to synergise in general. I'm pretty sure that argument is soundly defeated, even if your specific line of argument still stands.

Personally I wouldn't let it fly because it amounts to roughly doubling the damage from scimitar dance. Scimitar dance is already a highly effective feat, as is the wintertouched combo, so I see no reason to allow a dubious synergy between the two.

 

[DracoSuave]

Maybe so, but the argument was that feats and powers are supposed to synergise in general. I'm pretty sure that argument is soundly defeated, even if your specific line of argument still stands.

Personally I wouldn't let it fly because it amounts to roughly doubling the damage from scimitar dance. Scimitar dance is already a highly effective feat, as is the wintertouched combo, so I see no reason to allow a dubious synergy between the two.

From a balance standpoint, I don't necessarily disagree with you, but rules is rules, and from a 'what the rules say' standpoint, it's a different story.

Also... CustServ got back to me.

Hello Drake,

Here are the answers to your questions:

1. If I do this, does this change the damage of my implement powers that I use with the Fullblade, or just the weapon powers?
A: Changes it to cold damage until you do another free action.
2. And if only the weapon powers, why is that?
A: See above.
3. Does this change if I'm a Druid with a Frost Staff?
A: Nope, it does not change.
Please let me know if you need anymore help!