Selling items : illogical rule ?

[DM_Blake]

This is where I disagree to a point. For me 4E destroys any desire to play it other than as written. I can accept the whole system just as it is, including the awesome economy. What I can't do is bring myself to waste time trying to tinker with the rules. To make 4E resemble anything that makes any common sense isn't worth the work. As long as you don't think too much about the actual game world it works just fine.

See, I can't easily accept this.

In my real life, I'm thinking all the time.

In my career, I think about software and ways to make it do more and do it more efficiently.

I look at my yard, and I think about ways to make it look better. I think about my home, and I think of ways to make my surroundsound system sound better, ways to make my living room more comfortable, ways to keep my pantry stocked with food I like at reasonable prices, etc.

I think about my retirement, and my investments toward that retirement, and how to maximize my returns on those investments to leverage my surplus income into a brighter future.

I think about my children, and how I can help educate them, and raise them, to be intelligent responsible adults that contribute to society and are able to live happy and fruitful lives.

I'm always looking for deals, looking for new ideas, and trying to think about ways to make my life more pleasant, and the lives of people I work with and live with and associate with more pleasant.

I can't abide by a "Don't think about it" mentality.

Even the best game on the planet has room for improvement. Not thinking about ways to improve your life, even if we're only talking about a hobby you do for entertainment, is stagnation.

I prefer evolution to stagnation.

 

[James McMurray]

There's nothing to prevent the DM from throwing in a buyer who is actually willing to pay market value on rare occasion, as long as the DM counts that against the treasure the party finds.

There's not even anything that prevents him from not counting it against found treasure if he wants.

 

[Thasmodious]

Yet another way WotC is sending a clear signal that we don't really need to buy their product since we will still have to houserule a significant amount of the game system - we might just be better off inventing our own game system because it won't be much more work.

Good, great, go invent your own system with an attached real world economics simulator and the 1000 charts needed to convey the swings of the magic item market (I'll invest in flaming hammer futures). Go invent your own game system with all the rules for realistic medieval tunneling your little heart desires. Go invent your own system that will show that mean 4e that you can't roleplay without tables, charts, and graphs to tell you how to do it.

In case you can't take the hint - just go.

Seriously, I understand nerd rage, I really do. But you've been trolling the 4e forum for months now. You've told us all (and this goes for celebrim and regicide, too) how much you hate the system, how much it has failed you, how you will never, ever purchase it or play it. That's great. But what's pathetic is that you feel the need to spend hours a day for MONTHS on these forums letting everyone feel the wrath of your nerd rage rather than just going off and playing whatever game you want (or getting busy inventing your own uber medieval tunneling game with a perfectly modeled economy - call it Dollars and Delves).

The sad things, is that this expression of nerd rage is not uncommon. You can still find people trolling fan forums for the LotR movies, still trying to convince people that Jackson killed Tolkien. So I guess we have to live with such nonsense for quite awhile. Hell, even at the end of 3e's run, you'd still have raging nerds jump into long threads about rules systems and smug everyone with how superior 2e was and that situations like the one under discussing is exactly why said poster never switched to 3e.

It gives me a headache, but what can you do?

 

[jayphonic]

Re: selling items

"What?! No, we are playing Dungeons & Dragons at this table. You want the table in the other room, they are playing Milton Friedman's Merchants & Markets."

Seriously, for the economists in the discussion it really sounds to me like 4e isn't the game for you. That is OK. There are lots of other games on the market AND the good news for you is that 3.5 hasn't gone anywhere!

 

[James McMurray]

Good, great, go invent your own system with an attached real world economics simulator and the 1000 charts needed to convey the swings of the magic item market (I'll invest in flaming hammer futures). Go invent your own game system with all the rules for realistic medieval tunneling your little heart desires. Go invent your own system that will show that mean 4e that you can't roleplay without tables, charts, and graphs to tell you how to do it.

There's no need to invent a system. Plenty of them out there already have much more realistic rules for economies and trades. Probably not hyper realistic, but better than "evertyhing's 20% always."

 

[DM_Blake]

Yes, exactly.

For those of us that thought a role-playing game was intrisicly tied to world simulation, making 4e into a game which is a world simulation is too much effort to be worth it.

How can you have a game sysem and not tie it to a world simulation?

No, I'm not arguing against Celebrim, I agree wholeheartedly.

If all I care about is "kill the monsters and take their stuff" then D&D is perfect.

But what do I do with that stuff? Do I create a big pile of stuff in my livingroom and just leave it there? Was it enough simply to take it and write it on my character sheet?

To me, that's too simplistic.

I want to take the monsters' stuff, then use that stuff to buy a castle, hire some soldiers and craftsmen and such, and become a nobleman in my own right. I want to negotiate for land, then defend that land, even though such an enlargement comes with taxes and duties to my liege. I want to elevate myself and make a difference in the world, and I will use the monsters' stuff to finance all that.

But to do this, I need my game system to exist within, and be tied to, a game world.

These are not two unrelated concepts, game system and game world, that can be chosen to be tied together or not.

They are intrinsically and irrevocably tied together.

If you want to kill stuff, play chess.

If you want to kill monsters and take their stuff, play a computer RPG.

But if you're playing a role-playing game, which D&D still claims to be despite 4e's attempt to destroy the concept, then play a ROLE. Assume the ROLE of the character. Learn. Grow. Interact. Branch out and see the world.

I can't even imagine role-playing without a game world in which to role-play.

 

[Thasmodious]

On the actual subject of the economy, I think the magic item system makes good sense. It's not really functionally different from the 3e system, 20% instead of 50%, and the change reflects the new editions changing importance of magic items. From a "real world" standpoint, 10:2 is not an uncommon ratio when selling off used things (try to get any value on Friday out of a game you bought new on Monday and beat by Wednesday.

All the trouble a merchant would go through in trying to move magic items leaves me feeling the exchange value makes sense. Shops mean taxes, heavy taxes on something like magic items. And how many local rulers are going to want you selling the Sword of a Thousand Deaths to just anyone who comes into the shop (including that sneaky baron who has that haunted keep in the swamp and is always trying to overthrow the local ruler)? "Hmm, nope, best that I just confiscate that weapon now in the name of national defense." If I was a local ruler, I would keep a tight watch on the weapons and magic trade in and around my area. Of course, a shop is a great target for thieves (and unscrupulous adventurers) as well. Really, all in all, a shop dedicated to magic items, that keeps thousands of gold on hand to buy the things adventurers come to town with, is just not really practical. Now, some goods shops carrying the odd item or two makes a bit more sense. But moving those is still going to have most of the same problems, so they have to be able to expect a large profit margin to make it worth the effort (otherwise, just sell those chains as Blake says).

So, a magic item merchant needs to be on the road. Gotta go find the customers. This entails a tremendous level of risk as well. Besides the standard problems from run of the mill monster attacks and bandits on the road, you would be a moving target for thieves, adventurers, and every BBEG in the land. Why would the evil Lord Douche Bag buy one the items from your cart full of items staffed by a driver, instead of just killing you and taking everything? Clearly, you are going to need a substantial security detail, a number of skilled guards. Or you are going to have move low profile, with only an item or two, from city to city, staying off the radar. After all, if you roll into town heading a caravan with 30 guards, laden with chests of gold and items, the local nobility are going to descend on you like a pack of hyenas.

Once you've dealt with the basic problems of even getting such an operation off the ground, how are you actually going to sell the items? Hire a town crier to run through the streets shouting "powerful magic items in stock at Nevilles! Come get them!" I bet they will...after hours. No, between thieves, adventurers, and the local law "protecting their interests", you just have to keep it on the down low. So, you've got to establish a network of contacts, get your name in the right people's ears. Trustworthy bartenders, heads of guilds, militant clergy, local well to dos, the type of people who might be in the market themselves or who might discreetly discuss such things with those who are. Such a network also carries a lot of risk, word spreads to the wrong people (either local law or local evil guys) and all your security and careful planning aren't going to help much.

It's a tough business, a dangerous business. One that requires a high profit margin, because such merchants don't tend to live long. I actually think a campaign based around PC magic item merchants would be a lot of fun. The PCs spend a lot of time with sages and libraries tracking down legends of ancient troves, raiding dungeons and crypts for the loot, then facing the myriad of problems with being magic item brokers (those above and more). Would be a lot of fun and I'd love to see the day that the group would give some adventurer, fresh from a dungeon with some trinket he doesn't want, anything approaching market value for it.

 

[Grabuto138]

I am curious how many people in this discussion have worked is a field like antiques or art. Take Modern-era furniture, for instance. (something I have a bit of familiarity with). “Pickers” hunt down estate sales, look in old barns and beat on bushes looking for things of value that they can get for a deep discount. They then sell them to dealers and auction houses, also at a significant discount from the end price. Finally, they are sold to the general public. Since the market is small there is a lottery mentality at all levels. Most people make their nut off a few good finds with huge margins. Otherwise they are just getting by.

I imagine magic item markets are similar. The rules just assume that the players will get, on average, 1/5 of the final price which is actually generous if they are not the end of the supply chain.

If players want more, then the DM would use the rules for Skill Challenges rather than the flat 1/5 rate. Certain people like this aspect of the game. The DM should go ahead and make an “adventure” and let the player run an auction or negotiate with a shrewd merchant.

 

[Goumindong]

I am going to repost something i put in the other thread on this: As well as repeating what Grabuto just said regarding antique dealers. Low volume means you need high margins to get by.

all the arguments against the current 4e rules are not economic in nature nor are they logical.

4e is a game. Games need to be balanced. 4e balances buying items by making a bought item, I.E. one that you specifically are looking for to be less valuable than a found item, which may or may not be what you are looking for.

Regarding economics:

Large margins between buy and sell prices are common in low volume situations. Where there is low volume transaction costs and time on market are increased. These increased costs mean that you need a larger margin to make a profit.

E.G. Lets say you could buy magic items at a 5x margin or you could buy standard items at a 20% margin. But it takes 1 year to sell the magic item and it takes 1 week to sell the standard item. A magic item costs at the minimum say, 680 GP and we are looking at 10 for a mundane. So you can buy 1 magic item or you can buy 13.6 swords.
In 1 week you have turned your 136 of mundane into 163 gold and you pick up 163 gold worth of mundane items.

This continues. In 20 weeks you have bought and sold enough mundane items to be worth 5000 GP. In 52 weeks, the year it would take you to sell that magic item you have made 1.7m gold and are a magnate.

Now granted there is going to be some efficiency loss there(probably a lot) as marginal returns decrease. But this only highlights just how much the turn over rate on magic items can easily reduce their profitability. The merchant has to make his rent and keep up the shop, keep it secure, and keep it staffed, all costs incurred which are difficult to eat when you do not have significant income via other sales.

There is also the problem with merchants knowing what items reduce to for residium. They aren't going to offer much more than what you can get for the result of disenchanting the item because they know that it will take you a quest to sell the damn thing. So they offer you the disenchanting value of the item and save you the time it takes to sell the item.

If you want to sell a magic item for full price in the Points of Light Economy its going to be a quest to do so. Or you are setting up a shoppe and are going to be expected to pay for all the advertisement, staffing, security, and rent that is necessary to sustain that operation and all the risks that that entails without seeing return on your sale for upwards of a year.

 

[DM_Blake]

Good, great, go invent your own system with an attached real world economics simulator and the 1000 charts needed to convey the swings of the magic item market (I'll invest in flaming hammer futures).

A bit over the top, don't you think?

Go invent your own game system with all the rules for realistic medieval tunneling your little heart desires.

What's tunneling got to do with the price of tea in China, or the price of magic in 4e?

Go invent your own system that will show that mean 4e that you can't roleplay without tables, charts, and graphs to tell you how to do it.

Done and done.

But very few charts or tables.

Fewer in fact than 4e has.

In case you can't take the hint - just go.

Now you're just being mean.

Seriously, I understand nerd rage, I really do.

Still being mean.

Labeling someone, or their point of view, with a term certain to be taken as an insult, is one of the last refuge of the losing side of a debate.

Makes me wonder if you've lost faith in your idol, if 4e isn't the paragon of RPGs for you any more, and if maybe you're trying to convince yourself more than me.

But you've been trolling the 4e forum for months now. You've told us all (and this goes for celebrim and regicide, too) how much you hate the system, how much it has failed you, how you will never, ever purchase it or play it. That's great.

No, it's not great. It just makes me sad that D&D has come to this.

Far from great.

And you're wrong.

I've purchased all that 4e has on the market so far, my group is playing KotS. We're using the 3 core books instead of limiting ourselves to the rules provided in KotS.

We're also fixing what we don't like and houseruling to our hearts' content. Because we have to, just to make the game playable.

So we limp along, padding WotC's pockets with our consumer dollars, and try to fix the system as we go. See my closing statements below.

But what's pathetic is that you feel the need to spend hours a day for MONTHS on these forums letting everyone feel the wrath of your nerd rage rather than just going off and playing whatever game you want (or getting busy inventing your own uber medieval tunneling game with a perfectly modeled economy - call it Dollars and Delves).

There you go with your term again. Very impolite.

I own many game systems, including my homemade system. I've already explained my viewpoint on playing superior game systems with a smaller pool of players, vs. playing inferior game systems with a larger pool of players.

You claim to be a fan. Or at the very least, you've seemingly been following my posts for months. So no doubt you've read my viewpoint on this.

It disheartens me that the game system with the larges pool of players has taken a leap from being a superior game system (best of both worlds) to being an inferior game system, which now presents me with having no clear "best of both worlds" system to choose.

The sad things, is that this expression of nerd rage is not uncommon. You can still find people trolling fan forums for the LotR movies, still trying to convince people that Jackson killed Tolkien. So I guess we have to live with such nonsense for quite awhile. Hell, even at the end of 3e's run, you'd still have raging nerds jump into long threads about rules systems and smug everyone with how superior 2e was and that situations like the one under discussing is exactly why said poster never switched to 3e.

There's that term again. For the third time. You really need to reevaluate your own faith in D&D...

Unlike the Peter Jackson critics, I still hold out hope that WotC is listening, or that 3rd party vendors are listening, and that improvements will be forthcoming.

Not just listening to me. I'm not that arrogant. But clearly there are many people voicing many concerns here on this board and on others.

I hope someone is listening, and preparing to unleash a game system that elevates D&D back to a superior game system. Maybe it will be 4.5e (despite claims that it won't happen). Maybe it will be a 3rd party provider.

Whoever it is, I'm hoping they'll listen and respond, and capture a significant portion of the gaming market, of the player pool.

This possibility exists.

Those poor Peter Jackson critics are not likely to see him, or any 3rd party LotR movie maker, produce a better set of movies. They're wasting their time.

I'm hoping that I'm not.