Sequal Star Wars Trilogy News!

[fett527]

Don't have much time, but John Crichton I loved your take and agree with it fully of course.

Kai Lord, I agree your comparison to LOTR is very interesting, but disagree with the core of your idea.

I apologize I don't have the time to say more right now.

 

[jdavis]

And I believe the films (as in what you see on screen) are quite clear that it all comes down to that one moment at the end, when Luke throws away his lightsaber and says, "You failed, your Highness, I am a Jedi, like my father before me..."

Vader's redemption is just as much a by-product of Luke's perserverance as the celebrations on all the planets.

The line you give as proof of your point is the line that is proof of the point of the redemption of Anakin Skywalker. Vader's redemption is what saved Luke from being destroyed. It's not a by-product, it was Luke's reason for being there (as stated by Luke on Endor). Luke is the primary hero and his stated goal throughout Jedi is to redeam his father. Empire revolves around Luke learning the truth and in Star Wars the two don't actually interact with each other except in starfighters, but Luke does start down the path of the Jedi with the same teacher as his father had.

As far as the LOTR comparison, is that the schizophrentic movie gollum or the villianous book one?

 

[Darrin Drader]

As far as the LOTR comparison, is that the schizophrentic movie gollum or the villianous book one?

Neither. It would be the construct gollum. The one made of flesh that costs 10,500 gp + 780 XP to create.

 

[jdavis]

Neither. It would be the construct golum. The one made of flesh that costs 10,500 gp + 780 XP to create.

(need a rim shot there? )

Darrin Drader, D20's version of Jay Leno, he'll be here all week, thanks and have a good night.

 

[Kai Lord]

The line you give as proof of your point is the line that is proof of the point of the redemption of Anakin Skywalker.

Nope. Anakin wasn't redeemed when Luke said the line. He was the villain. Luke realized that he couldn't talk his father into converting, so he struck him down to save his sister. But he refrained from killing him so his own soul wouldn't be consumed by darkness.

"...like my father before me," was said to honor the man Vader once was.

Luke said "You failed, your highness..." because the Emperor lost. He lost having either Skywalker as a henchman and soon he'd be vaporized in the explosion of the Death Star.

That's why Luke was able to stand confident while completely defenseless. He knew it was over for all of them, they'd all be dead, but he'd won. Good won. The bad guys would die and no one else would be corrupted (particularly himself or his sister.)

But it would be a bittersweet victory because Luke would lose his life and Vader his soul...until Vader took inspiration in the cries of his son and turned back at the last possible moment. So it wasn't Vader's redemption that everything boiled down to or saved the day, it just made the victory extra sweet with cherry on top.

Vader's redemption is what saved Luke from being destroyed.

Luke wasn't out to save himself "from being destroyed." He was trying to restore freedom to the galaxy by becoming a Jedi and destroying the Empire. Redeeming Vader was a personal thing, and a revelation of his enlightened character.

It was the final test in becoming a Jedi, and in stark contrast to his failure in the cave on Dagobah and Cloud City. The cave and Bespin taught Luke that if you go looking for a fight, you become what you seek to destroy and won't be a Jedi.

He walked into the cave looking for a fight. He approached Vader in the carbon freezing chamber looking for a fight (note who first ignited a lightsaber, it wasn't Vader.) In Return of the Jedi, Luke had grown. He had to face Vader again to become a Jedi according to Yoda, but he also couldn't do it with the intent to directly destroy.

Enter his quest to redeem the Sith Lord. His only path to becoming a Jedi, and with great sentimental benefits. And in his quest to redeem he finally discovered what it meant to be a Jedi, even when he couldn't convert his father. And once he was a Jedi it was all over for the bad guys. The residual benefit being Anakin's redemption anyway and Luke's survival.

Whew, I haven't had an in depth discussion about the original Star Wars trilogy in I don't know how long. Thanks guys!

As far as the LOTR comparison, is that the schizophrentic movie gollum or the villianous book one?

The one where he's the corrupted version of the hero, is spared by the hero, and then destroys the source of evil power for the hero...

 

[jdavis]

Nope. Anakin wasn't redeemed when Luke said the line. He was the villain. Luke realized that he couldn't talk his father into converting, so he struck him down to save his sister. But he refrained from killing him so his own soul wouldn't be consumed by darkness.

"...like my father before me," was said to honor the man Vader once was.

Luke said "You failed, your highness..." because the Emperor lost. He lost having either Skywalker as a henchman and soon he'd be vaporized in the explosion of the Death Star.

That's why Luke was able to stand confident while completely defenseless. He knew it was over for all of them, they'd all be dead, but he'd won. Good won. The bad guys would die and no one else would be corrupted (particularly himself or his sister.)

But it would be a bittersweet victory because Luke would lose his life and Vader his soul...until Vader took inspiration in the cries of his son and turned back at the last possible moment. So it wasn't Vader's redemption that everything boiled down to or saved the day, it just made the victory extra sweet with cherry on top.


Luke wasn't out to save himself "from being destroyed." He was trying to restore freedom to the galaxy by becoming a Jedi and destroying the Empire. Redeeming Vader was a personal thing, and a revelation of his enlightened character.

It was the final test in becoming a Jedi, and in stark contrast to his failure in the cave on Dagobah and Cloud City. The cave and Bespin taught Luke that if you go looking for a fight, you become what you seek to destroy and won't be a Jedi.

He walked into the cave looking for a fight. He approached Vader in the carbon freezing chamber looking for a fight (note who first ignited a lightsaber, it wasn't Vader.) In Return of the Jedi, Luke had grown. He had to face Vader again to become a Jedi according to Yoda, but he also couldn't do it with the intent to directly destroy.

Enter his quest to redeem the Sith Lord. His only path to becoming a Jedi, and with great sentimental benefits. And in his quest to redeem he finally discovered what it meant to be a Jedi, even when he couldn't convert his father. And once he was a Jedi it was all over for the bad guys. The residual benefit being Anakin's redemption anyway and Luke's survival.

The line was said in front of his father pointing out the good man he was and could be again, it's got a lot of meaning, Vader's redemption was why he was there to start with (as he stated to coked up Leia in the ewok village). If Luke stated it was the reason behind his actions who am I to question him.

Then again it really was Billy Dee Williams who saved the galaxy anyway. Luke's fight with the Vader and the Emperor was less important than Ewok mania running wild and even if Vader hadn't gotten the Emperor Lando would have, Jedi smedi it's all about Lando and Han beating the Empire with the help of annoying teddy bear creatures.

Whew, I haven't had an in depth discussion about the original Star Wars trilogy in I don't know how long. Thanks guys!

My best friend for the last 20 years is a little overboard into Star Wars, the light switch in his bedroom is Darth Vader's head and he had Star Wars wallpaper till he left for college (actually I think his room at his parents house still has it up). He says all those Star Wars figures are for his kid but I know better (he's been collecting them since 1978). Needless to say I've had hundreds of the types of discusions (normally at 2am in a Denny's).

The one where he's the corrupted version of the hero, is spared by the hero, and then destroys the source of evil power for the hero...

So Luke had been wearing Palpatine on a chain around his neck the whole time? and How did Vader bite Luke's finger off with that big mask on? Were the ewok's the repentant oathbreaking dead? And was Han really a king? How did Legolas and Gimli compare to Lando and Chewie? Was Saruman the equivilent of Jabba? man this could go on for a while maybe this needs it's own thread.