Sexism and presumed sexism in RPGs

[Loonook]

My issue when ever some one brings up history which by the way I love reading about and gaming is this. In our middle ages there was no magic even low level magic would have changed how things worked. Women would not have been so easily subjugated if they could drop a fire ball or a magic missile on your head. The nobles ruled by power and outlawing peasants from taking up the sword. Sorcerers and other mages who don't need schooling could help even that playing field. A god calls a young peasant to become a paladin it is going to change how peasants are viewed.

And even in our society where magic didn't exist men and women were put to the stake for curdling milk, killing crops, and sickening the populace. They were also put to death for heresy and all sorts of other wonderful offenses, and for challenging views on how to manage society and their views in the sciences.

The economy of spellcasting would put most, if not all, PC classes from rising from their peasant ranks without noble/Church patronage... or apprenticeships, similar to what we have had in the arts and sciences of the period.

Being able to drop a fireball means you have survived up to 5th level. Per a standard 3.x DMG demographic mockup of a Thorp? Not a single Fireballer and 3rd level Adepts/1st level Wizards tops. In a metropolis? You're looking at 9 Adepts/Clerics/Druids/Bards above 4th level, 3 Wizards and 3 Sorcerers (rounding down). That means we have less than 1/1000 individuals able to cast 3rd level spells... And if we figure based on the framework of randomized Elite arrays you may find that there are individuals who have a very high level of Sorcerer... But not the Charisma to pull it off/have heroic casting levels.

These demographics are rough sketches, but we could also run the numbers on a representative sample of 1000 individuals from birth to adulthood. I would be happy to run a couple dozen checks once I figure out a good test to see the mortality rate in a representative sample of children. I'll have to come up with a couple solid tests to account for the lowest level diseases (filth fever would probably be the most common) and then run the specs to see who would survive into adulthood with an Elite Array range that supports the Constitution results of children and then compare that to a standard for childhood mortality.

And BTW the woman who lived back then didn't dress in the bimbo clothes some gaming art puts them in. Look at drawings of Joan of Ark she wore the same armor as men no boob cups. In some eras they may have shown cleavage but they didn't have wide areas of body showing.

In the dark ages and the roman times some of the brit warriors fought nude but covered in woad but that was both men and woman.

Plenty of warriors fought in the nude, and there are lots of cultures that have individuals who walked around in immodest clothing. The level of clothing ranges throughout history, and while Joan of Arc may be used as an example of a strong warrior woman... How many true battles did she fight in that are confirmed? And even with that, she dies at the stake for dressing in an unnatural fashion...

I enjoy realism to an extent but there are some topics that are just not kosher with modern players and one of those that seems to upset a great deal of people is the subject of rape. Yes we know it happened and still does happen but it is really necessary to have artwork that is hinting that rape is about to happen?

Plenty of depictions within mythology, literature, and modern fantasy are around. And as I said... The idea that it is rape is in the eye of the beholder. And why must a woman be about to be raped if she is being assaulted? Maybe just a waylay and a brutal murder.

I guess that is accepted in the culture?

I have played E6 and there is no way you can compare the PCs at sixth level to the peasant of or even the nobles of the middle ages. For one thing you have magical healing , fire balls , animating the dead, the removal of disease, speak with the dead, or having people flying through the air.

All of which have been accredited to various mages and priests during the Middle Ages. Well, except for the fireballs... Not recalling a specific discussion of that one.

Even in the SCA where we try and recreate the middle ages we don't actually live them we use ice and refrigerate our food. I use a sewing machine to make garb and o one would dare treat a female SCA member the way woman were treated in the middle ages. So I don't see why it is necessary to have it in fantasy role playing games.

The Society for Creative ANACHRONISM doesn't perform a full recreation?
That is kind of the point of the A in SCA, no?

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Elf Witch]

And even in our society where magic didn't exist men and women were put to the stake for curdling milk, killing crops, and sickening the populace. They were also put to death for heresy and all sorts of other wonderful offenses, and for challenging views on how to manage society and their views in the sciences.

The economy of spellcasting would put most, if not all, PC classes from rising from their peasant ranks without noble/Church patronage... or apprenticeships, similar to what we have had in the arts and sciences of the period.

Being able to drop a fireball means you have survived up to 5th level. Per a standard 3.x DMG demographic mockup of a Thorp? Not a single Fireballer and 3rd level Adepts/1st level Wizards tops. In a metropolis? You're looking at 9 Adepts/Clerics/Druids/Bards above 4th level, 3 Wizards and 3 Sorcerers (rounding down). That means we have less than 1/1000 individuals able to cast 3rd level spells... And if we figure based on the framework of randomized Elite arrays you may find that there are individuals who have a very high level of Sorcerer... But not the Charisma to pull it off/have heroic casting levels.

These demographics are rough sketches, but we could also run the numbers on a representative sample of 1000 individuals from birth to adulthood. I would be happy to run a couple dozen checks once I figure out a good test to see the mortality rate in a representative sample of children. I'll have to come up with a couple solid tests to account for the lowest level diseases (filth fever would probably be the most common) and then run the specs to see who would survive into adulthood with an Elite Array range that supports the Constitution results of children and then compare that to a standard for childhood mortality.




Plenty of warriors fought in the nude, and there are lots of cultures that have individuals who walked around in immodest clothing. The level of clothing ranges throughout history, and while Joan of Arc may be used as an example of a strong warrior woman... How many true battles did she fight in that are confirmed? And even with that, she dies at the stake for dressing in an unnatural fashion...



Plenty of depictions within mythology, literature, and modern fantasy are around. And as I said... The idea that it is rape is in the eye of the beholder. And why must a woman be about to be raped if she is being assaulted? Maybe just a waylay and a brutal murder.

I guess that is accepted in the culture?



All of which have been accredited to various mages and priests during the Middle Ages. Well, except for the fireballs... Not recalling a specific discussion of that one.



The Society for Creative ANACHRONISM doesn't perform a full recreation?
That is kind of the point of the A in SCA, no?

Slainte,

-Loonook.

You can only speculate how a society where magic really existed would act, But to try and say it would look like our middle ages is reaching. The plague is was powerful reason for the Renaissance and for science developing as the church started to lose its stranglehold on the population. Gun powder changed how wars were fought and what kind of armor and castle were built.

You are using game mechanics to try and answer just how many magic users there would be mechanics that don't take in consideration genetics. It is fun to speculate about it. But trying to justify sexism because sexism existed in our own middle ages is reaching.

Again what you seem to have trouble grasping what has been said here and on the other thread context matters. If everyone fights nude then there is no overt sexuality involved. It happens when you put the men in more realistic armor and the woman in stripper armor. In Conan everyone dresses in skimpy clothes it is part of that genre. But DnD is more than just sword and sorcery. Again context matters.

I can't believe that you are questioning how many battles Joan of Arc fought in are deliberately missing the point that woman who did take up arms used the same armor as the men. And if she had been a DnD paladin her magic and her calling from the gods would not have been doubted in a world where people have proof that the gods are real.

Show that picture to most woman and they will tell you that they expect rape to be involved. History is filled with incidents of rape. Some of our soldiers in Vietnam committed rape. Female protestors in Libya were raped a reporter covering Egypt was sexually assaulted. As a woman who was sexually assaulted as a teen and who has spent time helping other victims both male and female I know that woman are very aware of the danger of being raped. In most of the support groups I have been in or help run the men are always shocked that it happened to them because they never thought it could happen to them because they are men. Woman are not.

So I would think a gaming company should show a little sensitivity and not have a barmaid being taken captive by armed men. I would rather err on the side of caution in this. There is so much more ways you can show evil being done that does not allude to rape.


The SCA does not use live steel. Woman can fight and take the crown as woman. We try our best to research persona and garb. We try and make feasts as authentic as possible while still tasting good and coming in budget. People try and recreate the arts and crafts of the middle ages. But we don't allow racism or sexism.

 

[TanithT]

Plenty of warriors fought in the nude, and there are lots of cultures that have individuals who walked around in immodest clothing.

Once again, the standards for what I would consider gratuitous sexualization have nothing to do with modest versus immodest, or with people who are naked or being sexual because it makes actual sense in context for them to be doing this.

The idea that it is rape is in the eye of the beholder. And why must a woman be about to be raped if she is being assaulted? Maybe just a waylay and a brutal murder.

Is that the impression that the average person, male or female, will get when they see this image? No. Whatever you postulate the artist's intent to have been, or whatever might happen in your personal storyline if you were using this image, the majority of people viewing this picture are going to get a pretty clear impression about what is happening when two smiling armed men are holding down a terrified peasant woman with a hand over her mouth, and a third man is watching.

The Society for Creative ANACHRONISM doesn't perform a full recreation? That is kind of the point of the A in SCA, no?

No. Because we live in the real world, and we have stuff like liability and insurance and the county Board of Health to deal with.

I used to do a lot of "soltetes" for various feasts and medieval cooking contests. My specialty was processing a tasty critter, roasting it whole, home tanning the skin using period ingredients and methods, and putting it back on in an interesting way to be served. The single visibly non period addition to my whole roast gryphon and unicorn edible taxidermy was a butt-ton of aluminum foil between meat and home preserved "green" hide. Because, while food poisoning is authentically medieval, everyone figured we could live without the dysentery part of the recreation.

Also, we wash with antibacterial soap and use toilets. Because, Board of Health. And dysentery. And stuff.

Plus, there is no effing way we're going to say jack if somebody who is not of an ethnic type wants to portray a character who is of that type, because, um. Whole big can of worms there, and I don't know anyone who wants it open.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

TanithT wrote:
Honestly, I'm good with the porn. It harms no one. It's porn - it's sexual imagery, and there is no reason it should not exist.

Oh I have nothing against porn either.

I should have prefaced my post by explaining that I was considering RPG art and that I think sexualised art is inappropriate in that context. Truthfully I should have limited my search to art from published RPG books. (I dare say at least some of the images I looked at were created by fans for their own enjoyment, perhaps pornographic enjoyment, and I certainly don't have any problem with that either.)

The long and the short is: there is lots of room for improving the representaions of women in published RPG art.

cheers.

 

[Loonook]

You can only speculate how a society where magic really existed would act, But to try and say it would look like our middle ages is reaching. The plague is was powerful reason for the Renaissance and for science developing as the church started to lose its stranglehold on the population. Gun powder changed how wars were fought and what kind of armor and castle were built.

You are using game mechanics to try and answer just how many magic users there would be mechanics that don't take in consideration genetics. It is fun to speculate about it. But trying to justify sexism because sexism existed in our own middle ages is reaching.

The game actually has defined statistics... These statistics determine your strength, heartiness, and intelligence (along with your others ). I'll crunch the information for Filth Fever (a nice low-level disease threat) and run it through the number provided for children's stats to check out the mortality rate. I've been working on a few interpretations... It does not look good for the kids even at a low threat range (infection 2% chance/year, which is... Pretty low considering we're using it as ALL diseases) over a few thousand iterations... But I feel that Filth Fever is probably the best 'killer' illness and can be represented through a single series of rolls (random generate Con at birth, test for each year with increases across the series... Want numbers for a million people? .

The system exists as a representation of a world, and extends into the macroverse of the Prime Material as well as the microverse of the PC's day-to-day activities. And if everyone in the world follows specific rules? Well, that means we actually have a great statistical model to check on the lifespan of individuals.

Again what you seem to have trouble grasping what has been said here and on the other thread context matters. If everyone fights nude then there is no overt sexuality involved. It happens when you put the men in more realistic armor and the woman in stripper armor. In Conan everyone dresses in skimpy clothes it is part of that genre. But DnD is more than just sword and sorcery. Again context matters.

I grasp that in your view I do not grasp context... But you're also judging a culture which you are reacting to RPG supplements that I'm just not seeing. Again, I'll point to the BoEF: You claimed to have read the material. I can only confirm that I have read the thing cover to cover; while the entirety is filled with a lot of silly bits... But has a great section discussing generations, procreation, and the origins of various species. It seems a forest for the trees issue.. But I digress.

I can't believe that you are questioning how many battles Joan of Arc fought in are deliberately missing the point that woman who did take up arms used the same armor as the men. And if she had been a DnD paladin her magic and her calling from the gods would not have been doubted in a world where people have proof that the gods are real.

Being allowed to ride around in armor does not a warrior make. By that same token child soldiers should be allowed throughout D&D because of the example of Johny Clem. JoA was just dressing up at the behest of a kingdom that needed a figurehead. If you want a better example you could lean towards Brunhilde and Fredegund, who actually never actively battled on the field but used their strength as queens and consorts to actually launch forty years of war. Much more bellicose, even if they never picked up a sword.

Show that picture to most woman and they will tell you that they expect rape to be involved. History is filled with incidents of rape. Some of our soldiers in Vietnam committed rape. Female protestors in Libya were raped a reporter covering Egypt was sexually assaulted. As a woman who was sexually assaulted as a teen and who has spent time helping other victims both male and female I know that woman are very aware of the danger of being raped. In most of the support groups I have been in or help run the men are always shocked that it happened to them because they never thought it could happen to them because they are men. Woman are not.

Of course. That is completely how I, as a victim of assault, feel... Again, baseless attacks based on gender.

So I would think a gaming company should show a little sensitivity and not have a barmaid being taken captive by armed men. I would rather err on the side of caution in this. There is so much more ways you can show evil being done that does not allude to rape.

And again... take the man, put him in the picture, it is no longer rape in your eyes. The intent vs. impact argument rears its ugly head.

The SCA does not use live steel. Woman can fight and take the crown as woman. We try our best to research persona and garb. We try and make feasts as authentic as possible while still tasting good and coming in budget. People try and recreate the arts and crafts of the middle ages. But we don't allow racism or sexism.

Again, anachronism. I do not consider myself a living representative of the Republic because I have fired a musket and been in a camp. I also don't consider myself a knight because I fight with a sword. The SCA is well-known as an anachronistic organization (it is in the name) and not to be a true representation of medieval culture. Because that representation cannot exist in our current world.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Elf Witch]

The game actually has defined statistics... These statistics determine your strength, heartiness, and intelligence (along with your others ). I'll crunch the information for Filth Fever (a nice low-level disease threat) and run it through the number provided for children's stats to check out the mortality rate. I've been working on a few interpretations... It does not look good for the kids even at a low threat range (infection 2% chance/year, which is... Pretty low considering we're using it as ALL diseases) over a few thousand iterations... But I feel that Filth Fever is probably the best 'killer' illness and can be represented through a single series of rolls (random generate Con at birth, test for each year with increases across the series... Want numbers for a million people? .

The system exists as a representation of a world, and extends into the macroverse of the Prime Material as well as the microverse of the PC's day-to-day activities. And if everyone in the world follows specific rules? Well, that means we actually have a great statistical model to check on the lifespan of individuals.



I grasp that in your view I do not grasp context... But you're also judging a culture which you are reacting to RPG supplements that I'm just not seeing. Again, I'll point to the BoEF: You claimed to have read the material. I can only confirm that I have read the thing cover to cover; while the entirety is filled with a lot of silly bits... But has a great section discussing generations, procreation, and the origins of various species. It seems a forest for the trees issue.. But I digress.



Being allowed to ride around in armor does not a warrior make. By that same token child soldiers should be allowed throughout D&D because of the example of Johny Clem. JoA was just dressing up at the behest of a kingdom that needed a figurehead. If you want a better example you could lean towards Brunhilde and Fredegund, who actually never actively battled on the field but used their strength as queens and consorts to actually launch forty years of war. Much more bellicose, even if they never picked up a sword.



Of course. That is completely how I, as a victim of assault, feel... Again, baseless attacks based on gender.




And again... take the man, put him in the picture, it is no longer rape in your eyes. The intent vs. impact argument rears its ugly head.



Again, anachronism. I do not consider myself a living representative of the Republic because I have fired a musket and been in a camp. I also don't consider myself a knight because I fight with a sword. The SCA is well-known as an anachronistic organization (it is in the name) and not to be a true representation of medieval culture. Because that representation cannot exist in our current world.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

There are so many things that make up a society and how it functions saying that we can postulate what magic would do is not really realistic. We can speculate like fantasy authors do but we can never know for sure. It is like novels of alternative history. I have seen several done on what of the south had won the war. In the one slavery still existed in 1990s in the other slavery died out and the civil rights movement didn't take until 1960s to happen. Both authors made good arguments on why there speculation was the right one.

Morrus made a good point just because you don't see it does not make me or Tanith or any woman seeing wrong. And it is very discouraging to talk about this over and over every few years and still have to defend the idea that hey we see it and we don't really like it.

That was not attack on gender at all. There are a lot of people who believe men can't be raped I know better. There have been gender studies on this subject and the majority of men and women when shown a picture where a man is being held tied and gagged with other men standing over them and asked what do you think is going to happen the majority said the man was going to be killed very few mentioned or thought of rape. With a woman in the same pose both men and woman were more likely to say raped then killed.

Men who have not been raped don't tend to see rape of a man in that picture men who have been raped tend to see it. With the woman it does not seem to matter as much if they have raped or not if they rape as an end possibility. As a society we are more conditioned to the idea of rape being a crime against woman then a crime against men.

About the art work being discussed if the woman being held was dressed as a warrior or an adventurer by first thought would not be they are taking her to rape but more they are taking her to BBEG. If the picture was of a man dressed like a pleasure slave my thought would be that they were going to rape him.

 

[Loonook]

If you choose, you can certainly make a Huckleberry Finn/Tom Sawyer RPG, complete with authentically liberal use of the n-word. What you can't do if you make that choice is complain that more African-Americans aren't buying or playing your system. Because, duuuh. It's not likely to be much fun for them.

And that is completely within their rights and I would consider it acceptable for their wallets to make a decision. You have made your decisions know on these products.. Which you have not touched, nor know anything about, based on outdated knowledge. If I

When did I complain about the hobby's lack of anything? It is self-selection preventing you from entering into the hobby. Visual selection of the product based on your specific ideas and judgments of previous observations of individuals/materials that you perceive as similar.

Hrmm.

What I desire at the moment is to use language unbefitting to the forum.

First you threaten to commit an assault on my person, now language?

But I'll limit myself to pointing out that it took many years and a lot of horrific experiences to take me from being a fanatic gamer who clocked all-weekend long sessions and multiple 8-hour slots at every gaming con I could get to, wrote articles for the original Dragon magazine and pretty much lived for gaming, to where I am with the hobby today.

Glad to hear you have changed. Sometimes hobbies lose their flair for individuals involved in them. Perhaps the hobby has passed you by in some way. I'm sorry to hear this... But you have a seemingly quite active 'anti-RPG' lean in general, and don't seem to be playing any sort of games at all per this discussion, save for design of an unseen material. I would love to see what you're working on... Feel free to post anything and we can discuss them. You can even critique my materials, as its all listed in the blog on the link below.

Apparently I didn't convey this very well. Because what you're saying is that you're quite sure that the experiences that discouraged me were merely trivial, and if I really liked gaming, I would ignore them. Would that be an accurate summary?

Ever stabbed at a session? I'll show you if you wanna see... Though I sadly don't have a camera.

Didn't turn me off the game. Turned me off a player, or an small group, or a con... But I still love the game for all the screws I have had to deal with. Stating it is the game's fault is just a Leibermann'ing of the argument.

Some does, some doesn't.

Fair enough. You know, except for the whole fact that, if I took the original Cores and splats with illos and compared them... Well, there's random nudity, submission, at least one nude woman tied to a bier for sacrifice...

I mean, it's not even trying at this point.

Funnily enough, while I have seen a number of sexual violence images where women are depicted as the victims and/or in need of rescue, I honestly can not remember a single image or storyline in a mass market RPG where a male was depicted this way. Of course there may be some that I've just never seen.

See: Menzo. An entire city of matriarchy that enslaves men to torture and force into rituals to create spider monsters? Wait, that may not count..

Okay, where are they and why aren't any of them in this thread speaking for themselves?

Because they don't post on forums? Sorry, I just don't see the point of calling my female friends to post an opinion that is... pretty well established. But alright.

Oh, I get to look at all the new stuff, because it's in the house - I'm not the only nerd in residence here. And too often I facepalm and put it back down again. There is stuff that is getting better, but some of it is actually getting worse as far as I can tell. *cough cough Exalted Princess Cameltoe cough cough*

The cover...

Hrmm.

What was it again by judging by those?

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Loonook]

There are so many things that make up a society and how it functions saying that we can postulate what magic would do is not really realistic. We can speculate like fantasy authors do but we can never know for sure. It is like novels of alternative history. I have seen several done on what of the south had won the war. In the one slavery still existed in 1990s in the other slavery died out and the civil rights movement didn't take until 1960s to happen. Both authors made good arguments on why there speculation was the right one.

You realize we're discussing a system where we know exactly how much it takes to do... Pretty much anything? And the balance and power behind everything?

Sociology in the D&D world can be summed up with a discussion, GP, and a die roll. We can pretty much isolate the numbers on an entire world... That's what a roleplaying game system does.

Morrus made a good point just because you don't see it does not make me or Tanith or any woman seeing wrong. And it is very discouraging to talk about this over and over every few years and still have to defend the idea that hey we see it and we don't really like it.

Again, intent vs. impact.

That was not attack on gender at all.

It was, but go on.

There are a lot of people who believe men can't be raped I know better. There have been gender studies on this subject and the majority of men and women when shown a picture where a man is being held tied and gagged with other men standing over them and asked what do you think is going to happen the majority said the man was going to be killed very few mentioned or thought of rape. With a woman in the same pose both men and woman were more likely to say raped then killed.

May I have the article on this study? I'd love to see when it occurred, the specifics behind the study, and the statistics behind it... And if there was peer review on the subject.

About the art work being discussed if the woman being held was dressed as a warrior or an adventurer by first thought would not be they are taking her to rape but more they are taking her to BBEG. If the picture was of a man dressed like a pleasure slave my thought would be that they were going to rape him.

Again, intent vs. impact... And we are judging the image based on no actual image. Tried looking for the specific item... Can't find it.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Elf Witch]

You realize we're discussing a system where we know exactly how much it takes to do... Pretty much anything? And the balance and power behind everything?

Sociology in the D&D world can be summed up with a discussion, GP, and a die roll. We can pretty much isolate the numbers on an entire world... That's what a roleplaying game system does.



Again, intent vs. impact.



It was, but go on.




May I have the article on this study? I'd love to see when it occurred, the specifics behind the study, and the statistics behind it... And if there was peer review on the subject.



Again, intent vs. impact... And we are judging the image based on no actual image. Tried looking for the specific item... Can't find it.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

I was not talking about a system but system attempting to model the middle ages but have magic even low magic.

Impact matters especially to companies wanting to make money. The whole 4E release offended a lot of gamers and several WOTC designers admitted it could have been handled better. I don't think the publishers of Hrn mean to offend woman with that picture that was not their intent but it has an impact of doing that.

And no there was no gender bias at what I said at all. The fact is statistically woman have been raped more then men. I was brought up my my mother who was never raped who was brought up by her mother who also was never raped to protect myself that rape is something that could happen to me. My brothers were not brought up this way. I am not talking about child molestation here I am talking being raped on a date or by a stranger getting into my car. My brothers were warned about being mugged.

All my girl friends were taught the same thing. I have asked my male friends this and not one of them were ever taught to be worried about being raped as man.

As I said in our society rape is seen as an almost female kind of crime. You don't see the subject of men being raped in many novels, books or TV shows.

Almost all support groups for rape is made up of woman who have been raped a lot of centers don't have any kind of support for men. And no I am not saying any of this is right but it is how our society views the subject of rape and men.

The study was part of a course I took in 1999 to be able to lead a rape support group that included men. We were taught what men go through with a system that is not set up to deal with this from the police officers, the courts and their family and friends. Like I said for a lot of people it is hard to convince other men that rape happens a lot of them have the attitude that it wouldn't happen them because they would be able to fight off their rapist.

Woman don't tend to think that and while some people do wonder if a woman is not beaten up why she didn't fight harder no one really expects her to be able to fight off her rapist if he is man because men are usually stronger then woman.

One of the guys in my support group talked about how is father questioned that since he didn't fight the other guy off that maybe deep down he wanted it to happen.

This is the last I am going to say on this subject with you. I am glad that being stabbed didn't drive you away from the hobby. But that does not change the fact that woman have been driven way from the hobby by sexist male gamers.

But the fact that you refuse to see where some of us are coming from and denying that there is an issue at all that some how this is all how we choose to look at things and because you know female gamers who don't makes us in the wrong makes this pointless at this point.

 

[Zelda Themelin]

Here is my experience. Me and other women/girls who play rpg:s have grown really thick skin. This is kinda requiment or you'll end up stopping rpg:s. Men/boys however, can be more unsure and easily emotional. This is because of some extra attitudes they have to endure. I have seen pretty much all kinda behavior in different groups. Granted in my country cilrcles were smaller, and there were much less unstable people, much less actually than I've seen in some other, more causual hobbies.


I woudn't blame art so much. It's like that because of pop-cultere of fantasy. Fantasy has not gotten so much updates than some other genres because it happens in "once-upon a time lands". This is why some skin colors get passed more than others.

Problems come from people in real life/various internet sources/general cultural attitude/father&brother issues. Sensetive people tend to become oversensetive, relating usually quite other things than what happens at gaming table. However, then these people tend to lash out with high negatives on social issues that irk them. This problem however is not related just to females in rpgs.

But rpg:s all classicly set to be more of a male-hobby. Girls not allowed, getting attitude, dismissing comments based on your sex "oh no more girls", "you are here for your boyfiend, right" "you don't know the rules" "you can only play female characters". I've gotten all of those and so much more. I don't care but I know quite a few girls driven away by attitude.

Maybe some people here argue on art so much, since they feel it enchances boys vr girls and attitude that comes with it. I think this is so much more complicated.

I kinda like art this way. My only wish is more skimpy dressed sexualized males. Who also look badass. Like those ladies nowdays mostly do.