Sexism and presumed sexism in RPGs

[Zelda Themelin]

I disagree with a lot of what you have said here. I do think that art work that portrays female characters as bimbos in stripper armor gives legitimacy to the way some guys treat female gamers. It is subtle in its message but the message is there.

Your statement that it is there because of pop art does not make it okay there are a lot of issues with the woman are portrayed in pop culture. Sex should be used for sex not to sell a tractor or a gun. Yet scantily clad models are used to sell both.

I like hot guys and I like looking at them but I don't want them in my RPGs unless that is their purpose you know like a drawing of an incubus. They can be hot and still dressed appropriately for the situation.

You have point here, but you did make me go little "huh". I don't control why art/sociaty works like that what. And I've given up long time ago, that certain over-sexual trends would change. We even have Toddlers & Tiaras as wise internet has taught me.

And I happen to like sexualized art. And I am woman. And we guite obviously feel differently about these things. I would ok with realistic clothing choices too, which hopefully woudn't look ugly-practical. And being able to be awesome in underwear is part of feeling powerful. Rules tend not to allow that unless you are very high lv or caster.

Selling everything with sex is quite different thing than fantasy pictures in rpg:s. I find that kinda silly and sometimes annoying. I find lego friends much more annoying, though because it enforces gender differences on little kids.

Humans suck love, live with it.

 

[Loonook]

I am getting really, really tired of your telling me that I am saying things or meaning things that just don't exist.

Men and women matter, equally so. We're both human. What I am saying is that inequality is wrong, not that victimizing men is any less wrong than victimizing women.

And in your posts previously you have brushed off exactly what I am discussing, when I made the point, for the reasons I listed.

I don't particularly want you to read my articles. If you think I'm making stuff up, I'll PM Morrus if he's agreeable with the issue numbers, and he can confirm that I am not, since he can also see the name on the PayPal account I used to subscribe with. Because I have absolutely no desire to share anything I've written so that you can do the same thing with my articles that you did with my list of casually read fantasy books. And with pretty much everything I've written. Not currently feeling good about sharing my personal information either.

You published your name and information in a series of articles in an accessible medium... But you don't feel comfortable sharing those articles?

Allllright.

Are you saying that this image honestly isn't representational of anything else in the books? That it's *just* the cover, and the rest of the books are fine and dandy? Cause, ain't so.

Will not read past the cover. Check.

The image you posted is pretty okay, though I'd kinda worry about falling out of a sports bra that had holes in the middle like that. It really depends on context and whether the male monks are running around in skintight skimpies also, or whether they're in loose robes.

They do, as you can see in any book that shows Monks. Also, sports bras? Not too common in the world outside of our own period... Secure clothing, wrappings, but not a sportsbra.

No. I'm saying that if all or most of the men are wearing clothing that is fully practical and that mostly covers them, and all or most of the women are wearing clothing that is impractical and revealing, it's going to send a message.

And as I showed up on the thread... This isn't at all the case. Seoni is the only iconic that, per your instructions, wears such clothing without a reason. But I guess you ignored that post where I did the rundown?

I'm not talking about making the dex based monks look like the heavy tank fighters, or comparing a mage in her indoor laboratory to someone who is supposed to be fighting in the snow with a greatsword. Adventurers should be dressed for the adventure, and if they are depicted as being short on gear or as wearing gear that is stupid for the circumstances they are in, it sends a message about those characters. That's all.

And for 2500 GP I can walk around naked. Anywhere. And from our previous example of 'scantily clad sorceress'?

She's wearing boots. And using defensive fire magic per the text against a white dragon and the cold. The item can be made slotless, or into a ring, hat, etc... In D&D its a small purchase for any 5th level character or above in boot form, and affordable... What, 8th, 9th level for a different slot/slotless.

Or, as a fighter, I could just add Glam to my armor. For the same price I can dress in any normal outfit I could wish.

You seem to be arguing for everything to be correct to your standards... Yet even at a very solid passing grade (and damned near perfect for representations per your guidelines) you hold a grudge with Pathfinder. And Harn, the game built around being THE 'realistic' interpretation of medieval times, must change for your tastes?

Again, in the marketplace of ideas, you should have the right to speak freely... but it comes with the privilege to be offended. I really am beginning to feel for Penny Arcade right now...

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[TanithT]

You published your name and information in a series of articles in an accessible medium... But you don't feel comfortable sharing those articles?

Nope. I don't see any reason to share my personal information nor my real name on this thread, and lots of reasons not to. Morrus has the information in PM, and he knows the name on my PayPal account. No one else needs to. I am not interested in your offer to "discuss" anything I've written.

And as I showed up on the thread... This isn't at all the case. Seoni is the only iconic that, per your instructions, wears such clothing without a reason. But I guess you ignored that post where I did the rundown?

I have no particular interest in doing your homework. If you felt like picking a particular book and talking about it, I have no beef with that, but you don't get to assign it to someone else because you said so. I thought the contents of the Free RPG Day swag bag were a better and more recent random sampling of what was being marketed and promoted today, and one that many people would have free access to. So that's what I choose to discuss.

You seem to be arguing for everything to be correct to your standards... Yet even at a very solid passing grade (and damned near perfect for representations per your guidelines) you hold a grudge with Pathfinder.

No and no. I said that the most recent books that had made me facepalm were Pathfinder. They put out a lot of material by many different people, and a pretty sizable chunk of it ends up in the house. I did not say that I had problems with the system nor with everything they've ever published. Much of it is excellent.

And Harn, the game built around being THE 'realistic' interpretation of medieval times, must change for your tastes?

Didn't say that either. I said that if a game excludes or targets one gender or one race to be victims rather than adventurers, it is likely to make people of that gender or race feel uncomfortable and not want to be around it. You can play "Huckleberry Finn and the N***er Hunters" if you want, as authentically as you want. I have absolutely nothing to say about that. Just don't complain if you don't get a lot of African-Americans wanting to play with you. Or be anywhere near you.

I feel like I'm playing that old Atari 'Blockbuster" game and endlessly bouncing bricks off of a wall. Is there a point to engaging any further?

 

[Loonook]

Nope. I don't see any reason to share my personal information or my last name on this thread, and lots of reasons not to. Morrus has the information in PM, and he knows the name on my PayPal account. No one else needs to. I am not interested in your offer to "discuss" anything I've written.

Uhhuh.

I have no particular interest in doing your homework. If you felt like picking a particular book and talking about it, I have no beef with that, but you don't get to assign it to someone else because you said so. I thought the contents of the Free RPG Day swag bag were a better and more recent random sampling of what was being marketed and promoted today, and one that many people would have free access to. So that's what I choose to discuss.

And I say that if you want to complain about the hobby's attitudes you may want to determine the center rather than the outskirts. I don't complain about an entire group of people because of fringe elements in an echo chamber...

No and no. I said that the most recent books that had made me facepalm were Pathfinder. They put out a lot of material by many different people, and a pretty sizable chunk of it ends up in the house. I did not say that I had problems with the system nor with everything they've ever published. Much of it is excellent.

Are you saying that this image honestly isn't representational of anything else in the books? That it's *just* the cover, and the rest of the books are fine and dandy? Cause, ain't so.

Just pointing out the fact that you do judge books by their covers... Or a single image contained within them.

Didn't say that either. I said that if a game excludes or targets one gender or one race to be victims rather than adventurers, it is likely to make people of that gender or race feel uncomfortable and not want to be around it.

And you vote with your pocketbook. Or wallet. Or debit card. Or gold doubloons. There's a market for the product, and that market is being served. You, and those who feel the way you do, do not serve as the arbiters of the social mores. Right to speech, privilege of offense.

I feel like I'm playing that old Atari 'Blockbuster" game and bouncing bricks off of a wall here. Is there a point to engaging any further?

If you believe that this is a game, that's fine. You're really not going to change my opinion through your arguments when they're not made from an understanding of place. You can accuse me of wanting you to do 'homework', but the whole point is that you're not presenting evidence, pictures, or materials beyond 'here is how I interpret (unposted image that cannot be found online)' and then refusing to accept that said image, in its context, is affected by your own biases.

That is how bias works. We come into a situation with prejudicial evidence. I've listened to your arguments, but you present old materials first (Frazetta), a blanket statement which I refuted (Pathfinder) and an evaluation of materials which do not pass your own sniff test (genre conventions and 'fit the setting/story' for Cosmic Patrol and Harn in your Free RPG Day pack).

You have the agency to not play the game. It is not my responsibility, or anyone else's, to provide materials specific to your needs. You can create your own materials, encourage others... But if you consider a scantily clad woman appearing 1-2 in a book with your own interpretation of it being unnecessary or pornographic? That's an incorrigible standpoint.

As I've stated, repeatedly, the chainmail bikini is silly. Does kitsch not exist in this world anymore?

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[TanithT]

And I say that if you want to complain about the hobby's attitudes you may want to determine the center rather than the outskirts. I don't complain about an entire group of people because of fringe elements in an echo chamber...

The promotional materials put out for Free RPG Day are fringe elements in an echo chamber?

Just pointing out the fact that you do judge books by their covers... Or a single image contained within them.

Mentioning an iconically explicit cover image as part of a larger discussion while stating that yes, I have indeed looked through the entire book is not exactly 'judging a book by its cover'. That particular image is a well enough known one to serve as a good example, but it is not the sole criteria for assessing that game system's impact.

And you vote with your pocketbook. Or wallet. Or debit card. Or gold doubloons. There's a market for the product, and that market is being served. You, and those who feel the way you do, do not serve as the arbiters of the social mores. Right to speech, privilege of offense.

Nor may you stop anyone else from stating their experience and their opinion.

You can accuse me of wanting you to do 'homework', but the whole point is that you're not presenting evidence, pictures, or materials beyond 'here is how I interpret (unposted image that cannot be found online)' and then refusing to accept that said image, in its context, is affected by your own biases.

I selected the material I did because it was this year's Free RPG Day promo - anyone who was anywhere near a participating game store could get it for free. As it was a promotional giveaway, I don't imagine any of it is hard to come by.

If you would like to say that I am lying or exaggerating in my description of the outfits, I suppose you can, but I'm way past caring at this point. If someone who is not antagonistic cares enough to ask politely, I could take the time to do a scan. But frankly I don't see the point in doing anything to continue discussion with you.

That is how bias works. We come into a situation with prejudicial evidence. I've listened to your arguments, but you present old materials first (Frazetta), a blanket statement which I refuted (Pathfinder) and an evaluation of materials which do not pass your own sniff test (genre conventions and 'fit the setting/story' for Cosmic Patrol and Harn in your Free RPG Day pack).

Frazetta is old material but his style is still imitated, and was influential in the genre. I did not make any blanket statements about Pathfinder previously, but I'll make one now. In general I like the system and they produce many good supplements as well as some I wish they'd picked different artwork for. I don't have a ton of issues with the core book, certainly not enough to make me consider Pathfinder specifically to be a problem.

I have explained already why the Harn image did not fit the storyline presented in the accompanying text, and I don't feel inclined to continue banging my head against a brick wall by doing it again. I don't agree with the rationale you presented for the Cosmic Patrol "bathing suit for an axe fight" image. But I'm running all out of give-a-damn to argue about it.

This road leads nowhere. I suggest we just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

 

[Loonook]

The promotional materials put out for Free RPG Day are fringe elements in an echo chamber?

The materials are described as being on the outskirts, rather than the core of materials. If I am given a free sample at a convention, no matter what the type, it is usually going to be coming as a parcel from a specific group that wants me to check out their product. The materials you presented as 'obscene' are on the outskirts of the hobby. But again, let us be obtuse and mix our descriptions up here.

Mentioning an iconically explicit cover image as part of a larger discussion while stating that yes, I have indeed looked through the entire book is not exactly 'judging a book by its cover'. That particular image is a well enough known one to serve as a good example, but it is not the sole criteria for assessing that game system's impact.

The game system's impact? Interesting... So we're judging whole systems now? How about Pathfinder? Oh wait... We'll get to it...

Nor may you stop anyone else from stating their experience and their opinion.

And you cannot decide that the opinion is worth any more than its face value. As I said, you have the right to speak... and the privilege to be offended.

I selected the material I did because it was this year's Free RPG Day promo - anyone who was anywhere near a participating game store could get it for free. As it was a promotional giveaway, I don't imagine any of it is hard to come by.

And none of it here?

If you would like to say that I am lying or exaggerating in my description of the outfits, I suppose you can, but I'm way past caring at this point. If someone who is not antagonistic cares enough to ask politely, I could take the time to do a scan. But frankly I don't see the point in doing anything to continue discussion with you.

Antagonistic? So people who disagree with you, without expressing hostility (you know, by cursing, threatening, or suggesting sexual acts) are antagonistic? Explains... a lot actually.

Frazetta is old material but his style is still imitated, and was influential in the genre.

Where? Wanna show me anywhere in D&D within the last... 10 years where a Frazetta 'van art' piece of art appears? Pathfinder?

I did not make any blanket statements about Pathfinder previously, but I'll make one now. In general I like the system and they produce many good supplements as well as some I wish they'd picked different artwork for. I don't have a ton of issues with the core book, certainly not enough to make me consider Pathfinder specifically to be a problem.

Oh, so one of the mainstream RPGs isn't a specific problem. How about D&D? Those are the largest market share in the Frazetta playbook for fantasy art... Go on.

I have explained already why the Harn image did not fit the storyline presented in the accompanying text, and I don't feel inclined to continue banging my head against a brick wall by doing it again. I don't agree with the rationale you presented for the Cosmic Patrol "bathing suit for an axe fight" image. But I'm running all out of give-a-damn to argue about it.

Yeah, not at all what I presented for Cosmic Patrol (it is a series based on pulp, very clearly shows its retro-future roots).

This road leads nowhere. I suggest we just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Ahh, agree to disagree. I asked for examples. I have provided pictoral examples for my arguments, you provide a twenty-word description. . . And actively refuse to provide further to the contrary. . .

While accusing me of being an 'antagonist', sexist, and all sorts of other terms... Awesome.

That's not exactly how agree to disagree works. But I will accept you tapping out on the discussion. And continue to buy all of those smutty, horrible depictions of submissive women.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Grumpy RPG Reviews]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nu1fMB0HXK4&feature=relmfu]Special 11: Sexist Art in D&D - YouTube[/ame]

 

[ExploderWizard]

Depends on the context. When all the women are wearing bikinis and all the men are in armor, it sends a message. Like, that women are supposed to prioritize looking hot for the guys over minor little details like not getting killed.

I'm talking about when the males in the pictures are also doing the loincloth thing.

Also depends on whether she's showing as much comparative muscle as the male barbarians - eg, does she look as much like a female bodybuilder or powerlifter as the guys look like male bodybuilders?

Hey, way to move the goalposts.

Um, no. I enjoy pretty, scantily clad elfboy art when I see it, but it's extremely rare in a mass market RPG. I can find it on the Internet, but it's still hard to find in comparison to the cheesecake.

Closest thing you find is "gladiator" and "barbarian" stuff where you see big burly hulking strong dudes flashing a lot of muscle and looking bad@ss. I would not characterize them as pretty or come-hither, nor say that they are being depicted as objects to be acted on as opposed to being the actors.

Heh. I was just taking a potshot at elfboyz.

 

[Elf Witch]

You have point here, but you did make me go little "huh". I don't control why art/sociaty works like that what. And I've given up long time ago, that certain over-sexual trends would change. We even have Toddlers & Tiaras as wise internet has taught me.

And I happen to like sexualized art. And I am woman. And we guite obviously feel differently about these things. I would ok with realistic clothing choices too, which hopefully woudn't look ugly-practical. And being able to be awesome in underwear is part of feeling powerful. Rules tend not to allow that unless you are very high lv or caster.

Selling everything with sex is quite different thing than fantasy pictures in rpg:s. I find that kinda silly and sometimes annoying. I find lego friends much more annoying, though because it enforces gender differences on little kids.

Humans suck love, live with it.

Of course you don't control it. But it did sound like you were saying that fantasy art in RPGs is the way it is because of pop culture and nothing can be done about it.

Actually something can be done about it. If you let the advertisers know that you don't kike something and you will not be buying the product that is one big way to do it. Here in the US people who have been offended by a TV show have gotten advertisers to pull out of the show.

You have right to like what you like. I don't mind sexy art work except when it is in my RPGs and deals with what is supposed to be an adventurer.

I knows what you mane about being powerful even in your underwear and if there was a picture of that say of an adventurer kicking the crap out of someone who woke them up in the inn I would be okay with that. It would be kind of cool but no adventurer goes adventuring in their underwear.

The opposite of cheeseccake is not ugly. You can still have attractive people dressed in armor and clothes meant for adventuring.

 

[Elf Witch]

Yes... Torture and slavery are not good for anyone... When we are specifically judging gender, and the idea that gender politics are at play in Menzo seems to be meaningless to you. "Women suffer throughout fantasy, provide an example where men struggle" *Provides example* "well EVERYONE suffers there."

You know when I said that, in your example the woman may be assaulted, but men are going to be hung, gelded, ripped to shreds, tortured? Yeah, you seem to not get that man matter. It is women matter or we all matter, never a specific point where even a corollary.


Did you not notice the whole 'being forced to consort with demons to create monsters'? How about 'killing helpless males to appease the goddess'?

What is interesting is that Gygax was in contact with Andre Norton during the creation of the Drow, even letting her sit in on games the led to the writing of Quag Keep... Hrmm...


Again. You accuse me of not reading, and I have read... And there have been no specific examples from you. You can PM me with the issues and I would be happy to read your articles.

And yes, you are literally judging a book by its cover. The mention of the Exalted book with the cameltoe sorceress? Directly off of the cover of a book on Magic in the series (Savant and Sorcerer).

Then let us discuss your full plate fighter vs. bikini-fighter. Unless we're playing 4e... What 1st level fighter has plate? Second, the bikini-fighter who relies on Dex is no different than any depiction of the monk in any 3.x or up materials:

Amazingly enough, not all fighters will be wearing full plate. Hell, I cannot recall a PC in my games who has worn full plate in ages. The combination of available unarmored bonuses, even at 1st level, can allow for expenditures into better weaponry and other options. And once you get into magical armor availability? Hell, as stated there are glammer armors, ethereal armors, and even armor that hides itself as a ring, torc or pin... Armor that manifests as smoke in a bottle... Armor that is tactile-responsive... And several are from a single Dragon article that I have been looking for for about a month to no avail.

In short, you are arguing that two individuals, who may have different classes, races, skill sets, etc. who stand near each other should look exactly the same? I'm not eating ACP to be politically correct.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

I know I said I was not going to do this but I have to answer the Andre Norton comment. I knew Andre Norton we talked about this subject and yes she gave Gygax advice. They wanted an evil matriarchal society and that is what Gygax came up with.

Andre Norton believed in equality between men and woman and that both sexes should be treated with respect. She never would have said it is okay to torture men in real life any more than it is okay to torture woman in real life.

The whole point of the drow is to give the PCs something to defeat.

As for the picture of the monk there is not much wrong with this picture she is not drawn in a cheesecake style. She has well developed muscles and looks like she can kick butt. I do think they could have done without the peek a boo cleavage but that is my only complaint her stance is not the typical butt and boob stance some artists use.

Speaking of the iconics how come both Hennet the sorcerer and Nebin the illusionist get to wear full out of clothes but Mialee the wizard has the stupid bare legs and bare belly outfit?