Sexism in D&D and on ENWorld (now with SOLUTIONS!)

[Bumbles]

True. I have, however, seen quite a bit of sloppy argumentation from people that relies on the idea that "D&D is like medieval Europe" to defend sexism and other silliness - and criticising "D&D is like medieval Europe" in that context is not meant to be an attack on people who like games set in worlds much like medieval Europe, but instead is aimed at pointing out that the world described by the rules and features of D&D would look nothing like medieval Europe, so defending anything about D&D on the grounds of similarity to medieval Europe is literally ridiculous: it makes me laugh.

Well, laugh all you want, but if you don't recognize the pseudo-medieval nature of the game, that's your lookout. I don't pretend it's logical, but then it's not meant to be. It's just a combination of preferences arising out of a variety of sources, with no real rhyme or reason behind them. Which is why I find the long diatribes railing against that state to be annoying rather than persuasive.

None of this is directly related to sexism as it were, I tend not to use that particular justification for it since I go by the why be annoying rule when it comes to gender discrimination in game. I also don't worry about class, hair-color or handedness. Or flea infestations, horse shoes coming off and that sort of thing. Unless it's a story idea, and I want the PC's to have a reason to find a blacksmith.

I might think first of a white human man in heavy armour when you tell me "think of a D&D fighter", but just because I am a product of my race, class, age, and gender doesn't mean that I can't go "hmm, you know, there's no reason for 'a D&D fighter' to be human, male, or white".

Indeed you can. But that's something you have to ask yourself. It's primarily meant your own personal introspection, where it can be most helpful. In another sense, it's like the "I'm a PC commercials" featuring a wide variety of usages.

Tried it on your gaming groups yet? Or any of the other classes? Or maybe adding in a race as a combo?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Maybe. But it's also possible that both the game and the rebuttal were for the lulz and you're the victim of some epic trolling.

It is possible, but unlikely.

F.A.T.A.L. had an official review at RPGnet that was taken down. Hoaxes don't get made into 900 page rpgs with at least 2 print runs - the second of which changes the acronym to be more palatable. It would be a sophisticated hoax indeed to have spawned as many 1st person reviews as it did.

At stardestroyer.net, you can find a thread devoted to its awfulness, and one poster was even kind enough to provide a link that, if you click it, you'll be able to download the 1000+ page beta version of the game.

(Due to...salty...language, I did not actually link to the thread.)

 

[kolikeos]

All this talk about sexism, and then I notice the art at the top of every ENworld page (where it says "forums" "wiki" "downloads" etc.). It seems to me that whoever made that was under the assumption that the default characters are always male while females are only for "sexy" decoration (the only female is the naked demon).
I know I’m just restating what others have already said, but did anyone mention this specific example of sexism on ENworld? If so then please excuse this repetition.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Several ads that pop up on ENWorld feature "banner babes."

 

[Rel]

Several ads that pop up on ENWorld feature "banner babes."

Yeah?

Maybe I should turn those back on...

 

[Mournblade94]

True. I have, however, seen quite a bit of sloppy argumentation from people that relies on the idea that "D&D is like medieval Europe" to defend sexism and other silliness - and criticising "D&D is like medieval Europe" in that context is not meant to be an attack on people who like games set in worlds much like medieval Europe, but instead is aimed at pointing out that the world described by the rules and features of D&D would look nothing like medieval Europe, so defending anything about D&D on the grounds of similarity to medieval Europe is literally ridiculous: it makes me laugh.

Medieval women were not discriminated against nearly to the extent that Victorian women were. Medieval women were actually quite well empowered, much more so than the false assumptions that people make about the middle ages.

One source I can think of off the top of my head is Francis Gies Life of Medieval Women. Please note this title may be wrong, but the author is correct.

So defending sexism as being "the pseudo medieval environment" is not a proper defense in any way.

I play D&D with lots of women, but whether or not there was sexism in D&D or my adventures I have no idea. No one has ever complained, but it is certainly not anything I am concerned about. If its there its there.

If its not all the better.

 

[MichaelK]

My gaming group doesn't have any female players in it at the moment, (though I am trying to recruit my friend's girlfriend into the hobby since I think she'd love it) but I've gamed with plenty of women in the past and they've never had any troubles with the game.

Their reaction to the more 'chainmail bikini' artwork (which is significantly reduced these days but I still have a ton of older books) varied. About half of them just laughed, finding them ridiculous. The other half or so went "ooh, can I play someone like her, she looks awesome". None of them seemed offended at all. You never can predict how people will react to things.

In terms of the game system there's no mechanical difference whatsoever (with the exception of stupid classes like beloved of valarian and swanmay, which I houserule to be unrestricted by gender, not that anyone's ever wanted to play one). Generally when I generate an NPC unless I have a specific reason they need to be one gender then I randomly generate it with a 50/50 chance of either after I've made the stats.

Many of the supernatural creatures, (angels/demons/gods/dragons/slaad/etc) don't necessarily need to have a gender. I assume in my settings that they are androgynous and only assume a gender when they wish to procreate or if they're trying to seduce or impersonate someone.

The gods grant miracles to men and women equally, sorcery and psionics are as likely to manifest in either gender and anyone can swing swords the size of surfboards around. I just don't think sexism feels natural to me in a fantasy world.

It's not really that I'm trying to avoid sexism in my game, though I'm happy that's the result. It's just that I want my game to be pure awesome and fun, those things that are sexist usually aren't either of those so they fall by the wayside.

 

[julia1737]

Dwarven women do NOT have beards!

Dwarven women do NOT have beards!

And D&D was designed by guys for guys... and as a result... often has a very "Slavegirls or Gor" feel to it. Football -- not designed for girls to play either. However... D&D is a very maliable setting with rules which even state that you should modify them to suit your own world. For that reason every world you play in has a different feel and level of sexism or relationship to mideval europe. Most of the tone or setting is set by your DM.

And that's a beautiful thing!

But when you're a girl who comes into a hostile party made up of nerdy teen-aged boys who have trouble w/ socialization and fear girls to begin with... expect to be excluded and then have your character raped... or have the dm roll to see if you are having your period. And then for them to be SHOCKED when you protest. But... it's a learning opportunity! Women learn that men are not women like themselves but with short hair... and men learn that women are complicated and sensitive creatures and to fear and rue the day they try that stuff.

As bad as it is... I actually think the US is unbelivably PC compared to most of the world. Forget D&D ... their are lots of places on this earth where you get acid thrown on you as a girl for trying to go to school, have to wear purda, where female mutilation is a reality, and you can be forced to marry someone. This is not to say that things are honky-dory.. and that the advancement women have won are not precarious at best.

I think that there are not many arenas in which younger men and women really have the chance to share so much back and forth on very core issues... and I think the result is often quite eye-opening for both sexes.

It definetly makes the game richer and more complex. But girls... be prepared to be shocked and appauled ... you haven't come such a long way there yet baby!

 

[shilsen]

Dwarven women do NOT have beards!

Note to self: Make sure PCs interact with more dwarven women soon.

As bad as it is... I actually think the US is unbelivably PC compared to most of the world. Forget D&D ... their are lots of places on this earth where you get acid thrown on you as a girl for trying to go to school, have to wear purda, where female mutilation is a reality, and you can be forced to marry someone. This is not to say that things are honky-dory.. and that the advancement women have won are not precarious at best.

On this note, something I've been thinking about a lot recently is the way that sexism in the US works. The fact that there is a (in my opinion, thin) veneer of gender equality makes it easy for people here to say that there is little or no sexism, just like some people claim (ludicrously, IMNSHO) that racism isn't a problem in the US any more. But in other parts of the world, where the existence of sexism is so evident that it can't be ignored, people are forced to deal with it more consistently and, often, more intelligently. I'm in India right now, which has far more sexism than the US does. But as a result of the obvious existence of sexism, it also has some areas where it deals more consistently and better with sexism than the US. Hell, India's had a female Prime Minister and President, currently is enacting laws for reservation of seats in Parliament for women, does better than the US when it comes to portrayal/treatment of body images for women, has better laws against domestic abuse for women than the US, etc. And so on. The USA is much better for women in many areas than some other parts of the world, but some of those very parts ironically do better than the USA in certain areas.

Anyhow, the reason I popped back into this thread was to post about a couple of things which are fairly representative of the sort of easily-accepted sexism which I claimed in my original post to see on ENWorld as well as in gaming and related activities.

kolikeos mentioned some of the banner art above, but what about the idiotic Evony ads which pop up all the time here? There's little which needs to be said about it, I think, so I'll leave it to this blog-post made by Jeff Atwood here:

How Not to Advertise on the Internet

And what especially got me thinking about posting on this thread again is Electronic Arts' new contest for Comic-Con goers. Again, there's not that much which needs to be said about it, but for your edification:

Here's the ad

And here are a couple of comments on it, from:

Shakesville

and Ars Technica

Treating women like meat and men like neanderthals, 2009. Ah, 'tis a brave and progressive new world we live in.

 

[resistor]

Yeah, those Evony ads keep showing up on both ENWorld and various tech sites I read. It's honestly rather irritating. I want to read some tech news in peace, not have all my coworkers stare at me because there's a giant banner ad of breasts on the site.

Also, the EA contest thing flabbergasts me. I simply can't imagine how someone, somewhere, ever thought that was a good idea. And someone else approved it.

Ridiculous.