Sexism in D&D and on ENWorld (now with SOLUTIONS!)

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Vegepygmy

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I'm in India right now, which...has better laws against domestic abuse for women than the US, etc.
Please send me a private message elaborating on this point, Shilsen. I'm a criminal prosecutor in an area of California with a very large Indian population, and this contradicts everything I've been led to understand. I'm sincerely interested in hearing your perspective.
 

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shilsen

Adventurer
Please send me a private message elaborating on this point, Shilsen. I'm a criminal prosecutor in an area of California with a very large Indian population, and this contradicts everything I've been led to understand. I'm sincerely interested in hearing your perspective.
PM sent.
 


Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
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On this note, something I've been thinking about a lot recently is the way that sexism in the US works. The fact that there is a (in my opinion, thin) veneer of gender equality makes it easy for people here to say that there is little or no sexism, just like some people claim (ludicrously, IMNSHO) that racism isn't a problem in the US any more. But in other parts of the world, where the existence of sexism is so evident that it can't be ignored, people are forced to deal with it more consistently and, often, more intelligently. I'm in India right now, which has far more sexism than the US does. But as a result of the obvious existence of sexism, it also has some areas where it deals more consistently and better with sexism than the US. Hell, India's had a female Prime Minister and President, currently is enacting laws for reservation of seats in Parliament for women, does better than the US when it comes to portrayal/treatment of body images for women, has better laws against domestic abuse for women than the US, etc. And so on. The USA is much better for women in many areas than some other parts of the world, but some of those very parts ironically do better than the USA in certain areas.

I'm not privy to the PM you sent my Californian colleague, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Indian laws you say exist actually do.

The key question, of course, is how good is the enforcement of those laws?

IME, many countries have laws equivalent or superior to those in the US, but fail to enforce them as diligently or fairly. If you think US law on copyright infringement is harsh, for instance, you should check out the laws in places like China and Russia...theirs are roughly equivalent. However, both countries are notorious hotbeds for copyright infringement because of a lack of enforcement, at least of the rights of non-natives.

I live in the Dallas/FW Metroplex, in an area with a large and growing Indian population. Almost every month, I see Indian women treated with a level of disrespect by their husbands, brothers, uncles and even their young male children that is at least dismissive and disrespectful, and sometimes borders on abusive. Some of my relatives who work in service/sales industries see it even more.

And that is in public in mixed company. I don't wonder how bad it is in private.

Are these people rogues who left India because that way of life is no longer socially or legally respected? Perhaps. I can't say, because my personal experiences are in no way statistically predictive.

But it is so common here that I can't imagine that its much better over there.
 
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pawsplay

Hero
I live in the Dallas/FW Metroplex, in an area with a large and growing Indian population. Almost every month, I see Indian women treated with a level of disrespect by their husbands, brothers, uncles and even their young male children that is at least dismissive and disrespectful, and sometimes borders on abusive. Some of my relatives who work in service/sales industries see it even more.

And that is in public in mixed company. I don't wonder how bad it is in private.

1. Human beings remember the exceptional. That is, incidents of poor conduct probably stick in the memory more than all the times it didn't happen.

2. People do inappropriate things all the time here. However, because it is somewhat socially sanctioned, people don't react as strongly. When you see someone do something disrespectful that is not culturally sanctioned, you are probably going to have a strong emotional reaction. In short, we are not as fair to people from outside our culture as to people within our culture when dishing out judgment.

3. It's a mistake to assume only the male is on his best behavior. In many male-dominated societies, it is common for women to be socially submissive, but to be more assertive in private. Specifically, from my admittedly limited experience, women in India have a lot of decision-making power when it comes to money and relationships, and although it may be the norm to defer to one's husband in public, heated discussions in private are not uncommon.
 

JRRNeiklot

First Post
3. It's a mistake to assume only the male is on his best behavior. In many male-dominated societies, it is common for women to be socially submissive, but to be more assertive in private. Specifically, from my admittedly limited experience, women in India have a lot of decision-making power when it comes to money and relationships, and although it may be the norm to defer to one's husband in public, heated discussions in private are not uncommon.

Agreed. I've seen my mother respond to my father with "yes, dear," in public, then lay into his ass when they got home like there was no tomorrow. Of course, she's in her 80s, so that might not be the norm anymore. She also handled all the family business. My dad always handed her his paycheck on payday, and she'd give him a few bucks spending money, almost like an allowance, heheh.
 
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Mathew_Freeman

First Post
kolikeos mentioned some of the banner art above, but what about the idiotic Evony ads which pop up all the time here? There's little which needs to be said about it, I think, so I'll leave it to this blog-post made by Jeff Atwood here:

How Not to Advertise on the Internet

And what especially got me thinking about posting on this thread again is Electronic Arts' new contest for Comic-Con goers. Again, there's not that much which needs to be said about it, but for your edification:

Here's the ad

And here are a couple of comments on it, from:

Shakesville

and Ars Technica

Treating women like meat and men like neanderthals, 2009. Ah, 'tis a brave and progressive new world we live in.

Thanks for bringing those up - it's kind of hard to say there is "no sexism in gaming" in the face of it.
 

shilsen

Adventurer
... okay, so I've prepared an adventure. All the NPCs of note are male. Is this being sexist? :confused:

Possibly, but it's hard to say without more context. For example, if all NPCs of note being male is common to the campaign world, then presumably that world (and/or the segment of it the PCs are involved with) is a patriarchal and sexist one. Conversely, if there's no in-game justification for it (and I think I've explained why I personally think explanations for in-game sexism aren't that great anyway) and you made the NPCs all male for no particular reason, and esp. if that's the norm in your adventures, then I think you're being a little sexist there.

But, as I noted, without more information it's hard to say.

I'm not privy to the PM you sent my Californian colleague, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Indian laws you say exist actually do.

The key question, of course, is how good is the enforcement of those laws?

True. Here's what I noted in the subsequent email I sent vegepygmy:

"Let me begin by clarifying that I said that India has some better laws against domestic abuse, not that they necessarily protect female victims of domestic violence better than in the US. The reason I'm making this caveat is because the existence of the law(s) doesn't mean that they'll be perfectly/effectively applied or that everyone will take recourse to them.

That said, the main laws I'm thinking of are section 498A in the Indian Penal Code (which deals with cruelty to a married woman) and, more importantly, the Domestic Violence Act, 2005, which is focused on protection for women who are not only legally married but also those who are in live-in relationships, those who are sisters, mothers, widows, etc. An example of the way in which these laws vary from US ones, I believe, is that (according to the latter law) if a woman goes to a police station to lodge a complaint about domestic violence, the accused is immediately supposed to be arrested, placed in police custody and held there till the case comes to trial (usually in 1-2 weeks). The reason this element exists is so that a woman can immediately be placed out of harm's way (since the perpetrator(s) are behind bars) without being forced to flee their home, seek out a shelter, etc.

Now obviously this doesn't mean that domestic violence isn't as big an issue (and, I'd argue, bigger) in India than in the US. The number of people who avail of the above law is a tiny minority of the number being abused. There are also many allegations of the law being used in an abusive fashion, and it is gender-biased (since it's specifically geared to men abusing women). But its existence means that there IS a form of strong redress available for those willing/able to access it, and I've personally seen a lot of stories in the media where it has come into play. The position of women in India, in many ways is much worse than that of women in the US (especially among the poorer and less-educated members of society, of whom there are a LOT), but the point I was making in the thread is that there are certain specific areas where they (usually as individuals rather than groups) can be better off, a law like this being a case in point."

1. Human beings remember the exceptional. That is, incidents of poor conduct probably stick in the memory more than all the times it didn't happen.

2. People do inappropriate things all the time here. However, because it is somewhat socially sanctioned, people don't react as strongly. When you see someone do something disrespectful that is not culturally sanctioned, you are probably going to have a strong emotional reaction. In short, we are not as fair to people from outside our culture as to people within our culture when dishing out judgment.

3. It's a mistake to assume only the male is on his best behavior. In many male-dominated societies, it is common for women to be socially submissive, but to be more assertive in private. Specifically, from my admittedly limited experience, women in India have a lot of decision-making power when it comes to money and relationships, and although it may be the norm to defer to one's husband in public, heated discussions in private are not uncommon.

QFT.

Thanks for bringing those up - it's kind of hard to say there is "no sexism in gaming" in the face of it.

Maybe I'm just a cynic, but some of the comments on this thread and things I've heard/read elsewhere lead me to believe that some people would argue there's no sexism in gaming, whatever evidence one provides.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Well, it seems as if the Internet Gnomes (or the mods?) have eaten my last post- I basically agreed with pawsplay, but also pointed out that the behavior I'm witnessing among young (less than 10yrs old) Indian males is not just directed towards relatives, but also to non-relatives, such as the all-female staff at my father's business. Its the kind of behavior that would be corrected if the mothers in question had any authority over the male children at home...and is also entirely absent from their female siblings.

As for the law you cited, yes, that is nicely drafted. But what matters just as much is how the law is actually used. I can't say- as a Tx Attorney, I don't have quality access to stats on the Indian legal system- but human rights organizations routinely point out how nicely drafted laws are often ignored by those in power...everywhere.
 

Tallifer

Hero
Without the traditional mediaeval roles for women in a campaign world some of the best epic literary tropes become illogical. The very unusualness of these women made their stories outstanding and compelling even for men:

Joan of Arc, Brienne of Tarth, Britomart

Witchcraft and witch hunts

Damsels in distress

Succubi, lamiae (in the mythic sense), vampiric seductresses, sirens

Aphrodite, Venus, Lilith, Isis

Amazons

The Virgin Queen, Jezebel, the Prophetess Deborah, Queen Esther
 

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