Sexism in D&D

[Dellamon]

With some of the outrage expressed recently concerning the gender-based attribute modifiers in the D&D next poll I thought this might be a good topic for discussion. Just how prevalent is sexism in the game? Or is the outcry a movement being heralded to further an agenda? I personally don't agree with the attribute adjustment in the base game since any DM who wants to interject some realism into the game can simply houserule it. But I'm not going to slam someone who feels it adds an element of realism. I really do not think its that big of a deal and the reaction honestly kind of took me aback. It makes me think that there are other, probably more personal, issues beyond simple gender-based attribute modifications for the people crying foul.

One thing I will agree with 100%, however, is that the earlier artwork of some of my RPG books did portray women unfairly. Not every female adventurer is going to be a super model in a chain bikini. But to be fair, we need to have some neck-beards in ill-fitting, cheeto stained armor thrown in there too. The street goes both ways ladies.

 

[Masquerade]

It makes me think that there are other, probably more personal, issues beyond simple gender-based attribute modifications for the people crying foul.

Of course there are. Gender is a very personal thing. It's a subject that demands sensitivity. The issue isn't just that sex-based attribute modification is an exceedingly stupid rule; it's that bringing it up in what could be understood as a serious conversation is going to come off as insensitive to many people.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Some of that- plus other stuff- got discussed here in an incredible thread a couple of years ago.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/256227-sexism-d-d-enworld-now-solutions.html

 

[boredgremlin]

Gender based STR attribute is perfectly fine. If you give a half orc a bonus to STR because he's bigger and stronger on average, well men are bigger and stronger then women on average. So the same should apply.

Most girls I have played with had no problem with that idea. The issue comes in that then for mechanical balance you have to give men a penalty to something and women a bonus to something else. And no one can seem to agree on what those other factors should be.

But frankly the STR part is something virtually any reasonable woman wouldnt bat an eye at. And if she does, screw a jar lid on real tight and ask her to open it. Or move your couch across the room alone to illustrate how stupid her argument is.

When it comes to femi-nazi's who are just looking to start a fight over anything. Kick them out of the group. This is the least of the problems they are likely to cause.

 

[Dellamon]

The issue isn't just that sex-based attribute modification is an exceedingly stupid rule;

See, this is where I think the problem is. The concept is immediately attacked as being "stupid". Why is it "stupid" to want to interject an aspect of realism into the game? I could just as easily say that it is "stupid" to not consider it. Is it "stupid" to say that men can bear children in the game if they choose to? Is it "stupid" to play in a game world where only males and females can procreate? Why not get rid of gender altogether in the game? It would be "stupid" to do otherwise.

 

[Alzrius]

See, this is where I think the problem is. The concept is immediately attacked as being "stupid". Why is it "stupid" to want to interject an aspect of realism into the game?

There's great suspicion directed towards this particular interjection of realism when the game has no issues with making a great number of abstractions for a much broader and more salient spectrum of realistic considerations, e.g. hit locations and wound tracking.

 

[ahayford]

While there are physical and hormonal differences between the male and female bodies that allow males to put on muscle easier then women, the examples you gave are ridiculous. There are plenty of female athletes and body builders out there that could arm wrestle you under the table.

Another big difference is societal roles. In a fantasy society where women *do* play a more physical role, I guarantee you you'd see more built women on the street then you do in your average Walmart.

Being that the game *is* a fantasy....I don't see what the problem is with just leaving this out.

 

[ahayford]

See, this is where I think the problem is. The concept is immediately attacked as being "stupid". Why is it "stupid" to want to interject an aspect of realism into the game? I could just as easily say that it is "stupid" to not consider it. Is it "stupid" to say that men can bear children in the game if they choose to? Is it "stupid" to play in a game world where only males and females can procreate? Why not get rid of gender altogether in the game? It would be "stupid" to do otherwise.

Why add a rule that makes another group of real life people feel marginalized or uncomfortable?

Would you add a rule to lower the intelligence of certain human races based on other stereotypes?

I guess what I'm getting at, when you are making stat bonuses and penalties to fantasy races...no one cares because an elf isn't going to walk in and complain about it. When you start making the same judgements about real life groups...you are going to offend people...and in a game (something we do for fun) where we are trying to be inclusive...why would you do that?

 

[S'mon]

Attribute modifiers or attribute limits by sex for humans - I tend to think these should be by-setting rather than universal, and if they're in the core book be listed as an optional rule, along with age modifiers perhaps. These and racial level limits work great in my 1e AD&D Yggsburgh campaign and help evoke the sexist, patriarchal nature of the setting, but I wouldn't want them in my 4e Forgotten Realms game.

 

[Salamandyr]

There should be no mechanical difference between the sexes in the game rules. It's not particularly fair, and it's unfun, and I seen no reason for such nods to "simulation" when so many other areas are kept abstract. If you want to play Xena or Red Sonja, you shouldn't be penalized for doing so. If there were significant sex based mechanical differences, I would probably not play the game (I might make an exception for corner cases like drow).