Shadowfell Gloves and longer-lasting damage spells

[Yumepenguin]

My thoughts:

The gloves say to change the damage of the next arcane power you use to necrotic. Add 1d6 to the damage of that power.

Now, there is no mention of "Until the end of your next turn".

I think we're penalizing the gloves' power too much.

The gloves effectively edit the power itself. Just because a power (such as flaming sphere) lasts longer than one round doesn't mean the gloves only effect that power for one round.

Examples (i don't know wizard powers well so this is just random stuff):

Acid Arrow: Normally deals 2d8 + Int acid damage.
Acid Arrow with gloves: Deals 2d8 + 1d6 + int necrotic damage.

Now, lets go with flaming sphere.

Normal: Deals 2d6 + int fire damage to a creature. Any creature starting next to the sphere takes 1d4 + int fire damage automatically.
Sustain minor.

With Gloves: Deals 2d6 + 1d6 + int necrotic damage to a creature. Any creature starting next to the sphere takes 1d4 + 1d6 + int necrotic damage automatically. Sustain minor.

Just because you can sustain the flaming sphere (now necrotic sphere) doesn't mean it suddenly loses its newfound ability to deal extra damage and deal its damage as necrotic.

So: Gloves effect the text of the power directly, if the power stays around for more than one turn, so do the gloves effect on it.

 

[Leatherhead]

If there is one thing I've learned about interpreting 4e rules, it's that they're to be taken very literally.

In other words, you change all damage dealt by the power to necrotic damage and add 1d6 damage to it. That's it. 1d6, no more, no less. You don't do 1d6 per round. You don't do 1d6 per attack. You just add 1d6 once.

So, are you saying that if you use the gloves with a fireball, only one target would get the additional 1d6 damage?

 

[Oompa]

My thoughts:

The gloves say to change the damage of the next arcane power you use to necrotic. Add 1d6 to the damage of that power.

Now, there is no mention of "Until the end of your next turn".

I think we're penalizing the gloves' power too much.

The gloves effectively edit the power itself. Just because a power (such as flaming sphere) lasts longer than one round doesn't mean the gloves only effect that power for one round.

Examples (i don't know wizard powers well so this is just random stuff):

Acid Arrow: Normally deals 2d8 + Int acid damage.
Acid Arrow with gloves: Deals 2d8 + 1d6 + int necrotic damage.

Now, lets go with flaming sphere.

Normal: Deals 2d6 + int fire damage to a creature. Any creature starting next to the sphere takes 1d4 + int fire damage automatically.
Sustain minor.

With Gloves: Deals 2d6 + 1d6 + int necrotic damage to a creature. Any creature starting next to the sphere takes 1d4 + 1d6 + int necrotic damage automatically. Sustain minor.

Just because you can sustain the flaming sphere (now necrotic sphere) doesn't mean it suddenly loses its newfound ability to deal extra damage and deal its damage as necrotic.

So: Gloves effect the text of the power directly, if the power stays around for more than one turn, so do the gloves effect on it.

I agree.. and it doesnt sound broken..

 

[PHGraves]

So, are you saying that if you use the gloves with a fireball, only one target would get the additional 1d6 damage?

Area damage is rolled once and applied based on the multiple attack rolls. Given that, I would have to say:
1) No.
2) Try harder with your trolling.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Area damage is rolled once and applied based on the multiple attack rolls.

Yet if a multiclass warlock Curses three opponents and then hits them with a Fireball, does he not apply the extra damage to only one of them, despite there being a single damage roll?

If a Fireball hits two opponents and crits one of them, do they not take differing amounts of damage despite there being a single damage roll?

Since it's possible for multiple creatures to take different amounts of damage from a single Fireball, why would we add the single 1d6 from Shadowfell Gloves to multiple targets?

-Hyp.

 

[Yumepenguin]

Yet if a multiclass warlock Curses three opponents and then hits them with a Fireball, does he not apply the extra damage to only one of them, despite there being a single damage roll?

If a Fireball hits two opponents and crits one of them, do they not take differing amounts of damage despite there being a single damage roll?

Since it's possible for multiple creatures to take different amounts of damage from a single Fireball, why would we add the single 1d6 from Shadowfell Gloves to multiple targets?

-Hyp.

Because critting on an attack roll and a specific class ability that say "can only be applied once per turn" are exceptions to the general area of effect rule.

In a general area of effect all creatures take the same damage.

Example:

Say an area effect does 2d6 + Int damage to a 3 square burst.
There are 5 creatures in the 3 square burst. Damage is rolled with the gloves. Damage is 3d6 + Int. Say he rolls a total of 14 damage with this power.

Attack roll against creature 1: Hit = 14 damage
Attack roll against creature 2: Hit = 14 damage
Attack roll against creature 3: Crit = 21 damage, player applies curse to this target, damage = 27.
Attack roll against creature 4: Hit = 14 damage
Attack roll against creature 4: Crit = 21 damage

So, as you see three creatures managed to take the same amount of damage from the power because that's how much damage was initially rolled.

The gloves ability doesn't say "apply only once", it just say the next arcane power used gets +1d6 damage. Therefore, this AoE spell delt 3d6 damage instead of 2d6.

 

[Leatherhead]

Area damage is rolled once and applied based on the multiple attack rolls. Given that, I would have to say:
1) No.
2) Try harder with your trolling.

I was simply asking for a clarification. The "you don't deal 1d6 per attack" idea is a bit fuzzy when you consider AoE powers such as fireball have multiple attack rolls, but only one damage roll, as you noted. Having only one target take the 1d6 extra damage would balance it against powers like Force Orb and Lightning Bolt, with a primary single target attack that is followed by a secondary attack that targets other creatures, under this interpretation of the rule.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The gloves ability doesn't say "apply only once", it just say the next arcane power used gets +1d6 damage. Therefore, this AoE spell delt 3d6 damage instead of 2d6.

Which is fine, but if Fireball applies the +1d6 to every target, then we're discarding the "Only a single d6" interpretation, and so the Gloves used with, say, Flaming Sphere should add the +1d6 each time the Sphere deals damage.

I think one can interpret the Gloves as "Add a single d6 to a single instance of damage dealt to a single creature", or as "Add d6 to any damage dealt by the power", but I don't think there's a valid reading of "Add d6 to each target of Fireball, but only add d6 to the first attack made by Flaming Sphere and not thereafter".

-Hyp.

 

[Umbran]

2) Try harder with your trolling.

1)Try harder with your being civil to other posters.
2)Try harder with being respectful to other posters.

If you think someone's trying to stir up trouble by trolling, report their post. (There's a little icon at the bottom of the post for the purpose). Don't call them names in public. Thank you for your cooperation.

 

[Verision]

Well, I WAS in the "add 1d6 to the power's damage once and only once" group, but then I did some research and realized I was probably wrong.

You see, whenever I find a magical item whose description/function is in question, I look for a similar item (an item that has a similar effect) that's approxametly the same level.

So, let's all open our PHBs to page 249 and look at our friend the "Horned Helm".

Horned Helm
-It comes in level 6, 16 and 26, just like the shadowfell gloves.
-It adds extra damage; 1d6 @ 6, 2d6 @ 16 and 3d6 @ 26, just like the shadowfell gloves.
-It's property reads: "Your charge attacks deal an extra 1d6 damage". I think we can all agree that you get to add the 1d6 damage to the each and every charge your character does while wearing the helm. (It's not a Daily Power, just the property of the item.)

So, if the Horned Helm adds 1d6 damage to a charge, every time you charge, then it seems silly that the Shadowfell Gloves, which are the same level, would only be able to add 1d6 damage total per day.

So, I'm switching sides. When you use the Daily power of the Shadowfell Gloves, the next arcane power you use does an extra 1d6 damage every time it does damage. If you're smart, you'll use the Shadowfell Gloves with something like the Falming Sphere that can deal damage more than once.

Now the only thing that might alter this is the fact that the gloves change the damage type to necrotic, but I don't think that's a large enough bonus to make the gloves only do the extra damage once.