D&D 4E Should Ability Scores in 4E Be Randomly Determined?

[Ahnehnois]

I prefer allocation rather than rolling because as a DM it lets me customize the level of power available and balances the players and as PC it gives me maximum control over my character.

Random ought to be an option. I prefer it for rules-lite games where balance isn't such a big deal.

 

[blargney the second]

Or, you could just suck all the fun out of it and make it a dreary exercise in optimization, balance and perfectly fulfilled perfectly dull expectations.

I think my Condescension Meter is going to blow!

You're obviously welcome to your opinion, Korgoth, but I'd appreciate if you'd refrain from making insulting mischaracterizations, please.
-blarg

 

[Korgoth]

I think my Condescension Meter is going to blow!

You're obviously welcome to your opinion, Korgoth, but I'd appreciate if you'd refrain from making insulting mischaracterizations, please.
-blarg

Which exact part of my post constitutes an insulting mischaracterization? I'm willing to discuss that with you, if you would like.

Is the problem that I think non-random D&D is dull? Non-random D&D is dull "imho". Can we at least agree on that: that in my opinion, it's dull? Certainly you know that's my opinion, since you say as much in your own post.

 

[hero4hire]

I want both options. Options are good!

 

[FireLance]

Random rolls are all about being surprised. Will I get a guy who is clearly cut from the heroic cloth, or a guy who will have to struggle to succeed?

Maybe my well-rolled guy then sucks out on hp. Or the otherwise mediocre guy does well on hp. Maybe Mr. Hotdice winds up getting hosed early on in his adventuring career by a trap. Maybe I rock out with superior playing skills and the lowly Milquetoaste of Poopiton rises someday to become Lord Milquetoaste Trollslayer... that's rags to riches, baby.

Or, you could just suck all the fun out of it and make it a dreary exercise in optimization, balance and perfectly fulfilled perfectly dull expectations.

I take your point on the surprise element, which is why I think that random rolls are better suited for more experienced gamers. For the player just starting out, everything is a surprise because he has no baseline to compare it to. After he's had a few games under his belt, and starts to feel that character creation is just "a dreary exercise in optimization, balance and perfectly fulfilled perfectly dull expectations", then more randomness in character creation might be what is needed to make the game seem interesting again.

 

[Korgoth]

I take your point on the surprise element, which is why I think that random rolls are better suited for more experienced gamers. For the player just starting out, everything is a surprise because he has no baseline to compare it to. After he's had a few games under his belt, and starts to feel that character creation is just "a dreary exercise in optimization, balance and perfectly fulfilled perfectly dull expectations", then more randomness in character creation might be what is needed to make the game seem interesting again.

That's an interesting point. But I say give the newbies as much "wahoo!" as possible, right out of the gate.

You could just as easily say "For your first few games of Monopoly, nobody will be allowed to put down hotels. That way, we'll reduce the random element and make it easier for you to get into." But then there'd be less craziness and unpredictability.

The more you can have people jumping up out of their seat cheering or shouting at the dice, the better! I think that will make more converts to the gonzo fun of rp'ing than the sedate world of balance and predictability. "imho" and so on.

 

[Lanefan]

One thing about point-buy I have never seen decently addressed is the uncommon (but very much possible) situation of someone intentionally wanting to play a character with one or more stats lower than 8, without just giving up some overall build points (in effect, that's what happens in every solution I've ever seen).

Me, I have far more fun playing something that ends up as 18-16-12-11-10-6 than I do with 14-14-14-12-12-12, even though the second sequence has a much higher average stat and total bonus with no "dump stats". The 18 makes it useful, and the 6 makes it fun! Especially when it goes into Wisdom!

(I've no idea what those sequences represent in point-buy totals, by the way)

Lanefan

 

[AFGNCAAP]

I like the roll-up option, but I don't like it as the only option.

Ultimately, I prefer point-buy because it allows me to let players create characters on their own without any trust issues arising. Because of a few fellow players' tendency to fib on die rolls, I prefer to have people use a point-buy method. I have many reasons for this approach:

• It allows players to more or less build a character they want to play. Rolling stats doesn't guarantee that (esp. from the days of 1st & 2nd ed. AD&D with ridiculously high ability score prerequisites).
• It's an option that allows me to offer everyone to start off on the same footing. No one suffers from bad luck and feels that they can't do anything with the character.
• It's a preventative measure established due to some players cheating on dice rolls (some of whom still play in games I ran or play in).
• It circumvents the complaints made by players who rolled poorly for character stats (one of whom feels like his character is weak if it doesn't have an 18 or two, and if any stat is below or 14 or 15).
• It allows me to let players create characters ahead of time, with the caveat that I get to review the characters before allowing the player to use the character. (Ideally, it should work like that, though I've had plenty of players not take this initiative and burn up or lose out on game time because they have to make up their character the day of the game.)

On occasion, I use the roll-up method for characters when the rolls are made w/ me witnessing them. I have noticed that, "supposedly," whenever I'm there to witness the ability score rolls, the stat rolls for one of my players "aren't as good as they usually are," so to say. In addition to the fact that this phenomenon is not limited to me (in fact, it seems to occur when any DM actually monitors the stat rolls), I've grown to prefer using a point-buy system overall.

 

[FireLance]

That's an interesting point. But I say give the newbies as much "wahoo!" as possible, right out of the gate.

You could just as easily say "For your first few games of Monopoly, nobody will be allowed to put down hotels. That way, we'll reduce the random element and make it easier for you to get into." But then there'd be less craziness and unpredictability.

The more you can have people jumping up out of their seat cheering or shouting at the dice, the better! I think that will make more converts to the gonzo fun of rp'ing than the sedate world of balance and predictability. "imho" and so on.

I think the problem with the Monopoly analogy is that the game is not expected to last a very long time, and the next time you play, everyone starts over again at the standard baseline. If Monopoly had the same persistence as D&D, every time you were bankrupted, you'd start the game over again with $1,500, which you would proceed to quickly lose and become bankrupt again after landing on the properties of the leading players who own entire streets of hotels. If Monopoly was supposed to be played like D&D, hotels would be broken.

And, while a beginning player might have a vague idea that an 18 Strength is good and that a 6 Strength is bad, I doubt that he will fully grasp the implications of it until he's played his 15 Strength fighter for a while. Once he's had a better idea of what his character could do with an 18 Strength, pass him the dice and let the cheering and/or cursing begin!

 

[Baby Samurai]

I hate min-maxing that you get with point buys....

Actually, in my 20 years experience with this game, it is the people that cling to "rolling" for ability scores that are the super min/maxing, power hungry, uber ability score whores.

But of course they deny/defend this by saying that rolling encourages "role-playing", life isn't fair, that some people are just better than others, and that the characters aren't cookie-cutter and yadda yadda blah blah…