D&D 4E Should Ability Scores in 4E Be Randomly Determined?

[RFisher]

This thread has inspired me to try something new. Once 4e is out--assuming it has a point buy system--I want to write a program that will then calculate all the possible score arrays for a given point value.

(Assuming that players will be able to arrange scores to taste, so we don't have to worry about all the different possible arrangements of the same set of scores.)

Then it will generate a table to randomly roll for one of those arrays.

I'll get less of the variance of regular rolling, but some of the challenge/surprise of not buying the scores directly.

Now if only I still have enough interest in doing this once 4e is out... (^_^)

I have not yet, by the way, played D&D face-to-face with someone who wanted to use point-buy instead of rolling. I've never had any takers when I've suggested it. (Guess they're all cheating munchkins. (^_^))

I guess it's the suprise, but I do like rolling. Heck, when making 3e characters I've been known to randomly determine race & class as well. In the end, I don't really mind having low scores as I've never found ability scores to be so big a factor that I couldn't still have an awful lot of fun.

They might as well provide some point-buy guidelines since a good number of people are going to use such a system in any case. I don't really care what, if anything, they label as the default method.

 

[Malhost Zormaeril]

For me, the real reason I do not like a point buy system for D&D is, well, it takes the fun and thrill out of character creation. For me, D&D would not be D&D without that thrill of rolling your stats and seeing what sort of character you can make from it. More often than not when using a point buy system I see people making the same types of characters over and over, never trying anything new or different. To me, that's boring.

The problem is, most people have a concept in mind when they start to create their characters. You're part of quite a small minority which picks up the numbers and creates the concept around them, rather than the other way around.

Now, there's nothing wrong with doing that, and it is indeed fun, but it's just for very experienced players, the kind who already have 10+ years in the hobby (with a few exceptions). It's also a good idea to allow players to create a coherent team, for example. If we let the dice fall where they may, we may end up with all characters in the same class...

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

On the notion of coming to the table with a concept in mind, I can see how "roll randomly in order" could be a problem for that... but not how "random rolling in general" is a problem for it. Unless your concept includes "... and is super duper buff", which might indicate a problem with the concept itself

I can't believe that you still don't get this.

 

[Cadfan]

On the notion of coming to the table with a concept in mind, I can see how "roll randomly in order" could be a problem for that... but not how "random rolling in general" is a problem for it. Unless your concept includes "... and is super duper buff", which might indicate a problem with the concept itself (after all, what if my concept is for a 20th level character? Too bad, this campaign starts at 1st level, so that concept will have to be modified, etc.).

Lets say I want to play a Wizard, and you want to play a Paladin. I roll 14, 14, 13, 12, 12, 11. You roll 18, 12, 11, 11, 10, 7.

I will have a crappy wizard who, by level 17 won't be able to cast level 9 spells without magical support. If only I had your stats, I could put the 18 in Intelligence, and have a nice character. But I don't, I have to make do with the 14, or give up and not play a wizard.

Now lets look at your paladin. I suppose he puts his 18 in strength, and his 12 in... in what? He'll probably need it in wisdom so that he can actually cast spells. Even then it will be tough for him. And then he'll be a paladin with no charisma bonus, preventing him from using his improved saving throws, and making his smite evil crappy. You'd really be better off giving up and playing a wizard.

In each case, the character concept was blocked by the rolls. It wasn't about how uber the stat lines were, because in both cases the characters could trade stat lines and really enjoy themselves. It was about stat distribution.

 

[tek2way]

Lets say I want to play a Wizard, and you want to play a Paladin. I roll 14, 14, 13, 12, 12, 11. You roll 18, 12, 11, 11, 10, 7.

I will have a crappy wizard who, by level 17 won't be able to cast level 9 spells without magical support. If only I had your stats, I could put the 18 in Intelligence, and have a nice character. But I don't, I have to make do with the 14, or give up and not play a wizard.

Now lets look at your paladin. I suppose he puts his 18 in strength, and his 12 in... in what? He'll probably need it in wisdom so that he can actually cast spells. Even then it will be tough for him. And then he'll be a paladin with no charisma bonus, preventing him from using his improved saving throws, and making his smite evil crappy. You'd really be better off giving up and playing a wizard.

In each case, the character concept was blocked by the rolls. It wasn't about how uber the stat lines were, because in both cases the characters could trade stat lines and really enjoy themselves. It was about stat distribution.

It's at this point that I, as DM, would look at the wizard and paladin, and help them work something out (swapping arrays is one thought -- that's the beauty of playing with friends).

Also, not to nitpick,neither array sucks. Neither character would be godly at first, but one thign *I* take into consideration when assigning stats are the stat bumps someone gets in their progression. In which case, the wizard would have the 18 INT by level 16, and the paladin would have a 14 WIS by level 8 (both in plenty of time to get their full spell ranges), assuming the character wasn't going to multiclass at all. But I digress..

In all my years of DMing and playing, I have NEVER seen a situation where, when the dice fell poorly, the DM didn't allow the character to reroll (or do something about it in some way), but again, that's from always playing with friends, so YMMV.

My final thought on the subject is simply: People like choices. Nothing's wrong with rolling or point buy. Include them both in the PHB.

 

[blargney the second]

In all my years of DMing and playing, I have NEVER seen a situation where, when the dice fell poorly, the DM didn't allow the character to reroll (or do something about it in some way)

That's exactly why I switched to point-buy and fixed hit points.
-blarg

 

[tek2way]

That's exactly why I switched to point-buy and fixed hit points.

Now, I"ll concede fixed hit points in a heartbeat. The thing I *loathe* is rolling low on my hit die. In fact, I used fixed hit points in both my 3.0 and 3.5 campaigns. My only caveat to the players, though, was that the monsters had their hit points calculated the exact same way.

 

[Simia Saturnalia]

(swapping arrays is one thought -- that's the beauty of playing with friends).

I'll admit my first thought upon reading that example was "why don't they just trade the arrays", but that may be because we did just that when rolling up some PCs for RttToEE (to produce a Cloistered Cleric and a Paladin, but that's pretty close).

And Iron Heroes won me over to the 1d4+x HD route for PCs the moment I saw it. Random Hit Points when leveling - because that roll is exciting! - but with little margin for soft characters. 'Reroll under half' works too if you'd rather use the "proper" Hit Dice, but I'm not that fond of holy beef.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

In all my years of DMing and playing, I have NEVER seen a situation where, when the dice fell poorly, the DM didn't allow the character to reroll (or do something about it in some way), but again, that's from always playing with friends, so YMMV.

I believe the point that I and the others on the generally pro-Point Buy side are making is that, when you start devising all sorts of exceptions to the rule - Roll your character, but you can reroll, or switch rolls with someone else, or adjust stats in manner [X], etc. - why don't you just come up with a way for everyone to get the stats they want to begin with?

What intrinsic value do all those middlemen have, other than some sort of "I rolled my character, so it's more 'real' than your point buy character" cachet?

In fact, in the game I'm about to run, I've gone one step farther than Point Buy. In this campaign, players may set their characters' base stats (before racial mods) to any value they desire in the 3-18 range. Go wild.*

* - Then, figure out the PC's point buy value (scale modified to account for values < 8), and subtract a number from it. That's the PC's Hubris score (which may or may not ever have an in-game effect).

Nothing's wrong with rolling or point buy. Include them both in the PHB.

That I also agree with.

 

[crazy_cat]

I think that a set of systems should be provided, just like with the current edition.

What he said.