D&D 4E Should Ability Scores in 4E Be Randomly Determined?

[Simia Saturnalia]

I believe the point that I and the others on the generally pro-Point Buy side are making is that, when you start devising all sorts of exceptions to the rule - Roll your character, but you can reroll, or switch rolls with someone else, or adjust stats in manner [X], etc. - why don't you just come up with a way for everyone to get the stats they want to begin with?

Speaking only for my own group, the stats we want are like art or pornography; we can't describe it, but we'll know it when we see it. It defines the actual numbers of a MAD PC, or the five extra stats on a wizard D), in ways we didn't expect when we set out to roll up a member of that class.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Speaking only for my own group, the stats we want are like art or pornography; we can't describe it, but we'll know it when we see it. It defines the actual numbers of a MAD PC, or the five extra stats on a wizard D), in ways we didn't expect when we set out to roll up a member of that class.

And like I mentioned earlier, "I'm not sure what I want to play; what do the dice show me?" is a great reason to use a random generation method.

However, when I come to the table with "I'd like to play a Wizard who, despite being studious, actually managed to spend some time out under the sky (like the eventual ... Ergothian? ... head of the White Robes in Dragonlance)," then I've got a pretty good idea of what those other abilities should look like (especially when I spend my 1st-level feat on Martial Weapon Proficiency (Harpoon)).

 

[tek2way]

I believe the point that I and the others on the generally pro-Point Buy side are making is that, when you start devising all sorts of exceptions to the rule - Roll your character, but you can reroll, or switch rolls with someone else, or adjust stats in manner [X], etc. - why don't you just come up with a way for everyone to get the stats they want to begin with?

What intrinsic value do all those middlemen have, other than some sort of "I rolled my character, so it's more 'real' than your point buy character" cachet?

In fact, in the game I'm about to run, I've gone one step farther than Point Buy. In this campaign, players may set their characters' base stats (before racial mods) to any value they desire in the 3-18 range. Go wild.*

* - Then, figure out the PC's point buy value (scale modified to account for values < 8), and subtract a number from it. That's the PC's Hubris score (which may or may not ever have an in-game effect).

I can see the point in having point buy (indeed, I used the Dragon #346 method the last time I had players roll characters). However, in an earlier post, I explained that I *loved* rolling my stats when I first got into the game, and typically let the rolls determine what kind of character I would play, because I had no preconceived idea of what to want from the game. I suggest that this mindset might hold more sway than some folks are willing to admit. (EDIT: Which is why I wouldn't want to see them relegated to a footnote in the DMG as an "alternate" rolling method. Sorry. Had to clarify. )

As a counter, I really did not like how Vampire worked back then (I'm more open to point buy now, of course), because there was no chance for me to get a 5 in something without giving up too much in another -- which is, admittedly, minmaxing. For my group, rolling 18 was a reward for lucky rolls, and frequently preceded a roll of 6 or 7.

That's an interesting method of character creation, I must admit. Knowing my players, though, I'd never get to use it. ("What do you mean, he's got all 18s?!")

 

[Cadfan]

It's at this point that I, as DM, would look at the wizard and paladin, and help them work something out (swapping arrays is one thought -- that's the beauty of playing with friends).

...

In all my years of DMing and playing, I have NEVER seen a situation where, when the dice fell poorly, the DM didn't allow the character to reroll (or do something about it in some way), but again, that's from always playing with friends, so YMMV.

You really can't defend a rule by saying that the DM will ignore the rule if the rule doesn't create good results. If you're going to play on that standard, then it doesn't really matter all that much what the default rules in the Player's Handbook say, then does it?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

That's an interesting method of character creation, I must admit. Knowing my players, though, I'd never get to use it. ("What do you mean, he's got all 18s?!")

That's what the Hubris score is for. Need to determine who the evil wizard targets? Hubris. Need to know whose stuff gets stolen? Hubris.

 

[Wormwood]

That's what the Hubris score is for. Need to determine who the evil wizard targets? Hubris. Need to know whose stuff gets stolen? Hubris.

GENIUS.

Consider this stolen.

 

[tek2way]

You really can't defend a rule by saying that the DM will ignore the rule if the rule doesn't create good results. If you're going to play on that standard, then it doesn't really matter all that much what the default rules in the Player's Handbook say, then does it?

Nope. It doesn't. The rules are a means to an end, not the end themselves.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

GENIUS.

Consider this stolen.

Heh. I wish I could take credit for the idea, but I actually got it from a poster here several years back. I used it in an all-Warforged (excepting the human "Poltical Officer") short campaign, which used pregens, just assigning the scores as I saw fit.

I just wish I could remember who I killed to take I his [her] stuff.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Why is there no option for "Both"? Isn't that what 3E did? They gave you multiple options for ability score generation. Multiple ways to randomize, and point buy.

 

[Lanefan]

This thread has inspired me to try something new. Once 4e is out--assuming it has a point buy system--I want to write a program that will then calculate all the possible score arrays for a given point value.

(Assuming that players will be able to arrange scores to taste, so we don't have to worry about all the different possible arrangements of the same set of scores.)

Then it will generate a table to randomly roll for one of those arrays.

I'll get less of the variance of regular rolling, but some of the challenge/surprise of not buying the scores directly.

Now if only I still have enough interest in doing this once 4e is out... (^_^)

Why wait for 4e? This would be handy for anyone who wants to use point-buy in any edition.

Lanefan