Should I nix the PC's Paladin status?

[Tom Cashel]

Re: Re: Re

He wasn't just breaking into a theifs house here. He was breaking into the inner sanctom of a Good goddess who had offered him shelter but required her privacy.

A chaotic good goddess. Certainly she sees the value of unpredictable actions in the service of good.

As for the paladin, he should be censured but not stripped.

 

[Dragonblade]

Interesting, Lela, that your PP said, "Justice."

I too believe that to uphold and fight for justice is the paladin's noblest calling even if they aren't a paladin of Tyr.

Just keep Capt. Picard's famous quote in mind:

"As long as laws are absolute, there can be no justice."

 

[Lela]

Interesting, Lela, that your PP said, "Justice."

I too believe that to uphold and fight for justice is the paladin's noblest calling even if they aren't a paladin of Tyr.

Just keep Capt. Picard's famous quote in mind:

"As long as laws are absolute, there can be no justice."

Can you pin down the movie or episode (even the events in it would give me a reference) that's from?

 

[Lela]

Okay, I said I'd let everyone know how it went. While I tryed to do Story Hour form I couldn't make it work. Sorry. I write better when the writting can take me where it wants to go rather than forcing me to fallow an exact course.

After helping a DID (damsel in distress)--their first--they made their way to the city of Farsqua.

It was a short distance outside the city that Runier, Paladin of Tyr, was taken into custidy by the city guards at the temple of Tyr's request. He was easy to spot, being a centaur with silver hair and gleaming full plate. Not to mention Tyr's symbol embossed on his breastplate.

Three guards remaind and informed them that many of them were required to wear a gleaming blue C upon their chests while in the city. The Wild Mage was given a red C, called skum, and told to stay away from the general public as much as possible. They were told reservations had been made at the Red Dragon inn.

Just before entering the city Runier handed the body of a fallen dwarf he had caried back from its still living company of King's Guards (who all happened to be human) to the city guard stationed at the gate. The body, still wrapped in a blanket, was thrown aside and the guard wretched.

Coming upon the guard wiping his mouth and kicking the bundle at his feet, Ama'kari (elven ranger, CN) had mentioned his weak somic. "Get moving spindly," was the reply. [It should be noted that 'spindly' is an offensive racial remark used by some humans towards elves.] Ama'kari was deeply shocked by the remark and the party--consisting mostly of elves--made a note of who the guard was and planned to avoid him in the future.


And. . .

Sorry guys got an important phone call. I gotta take this. Will post more tomarrow.

 

[Dragonblade]

Well the episode thats from is the one where the crew visit this paradise world and Wesley Crusher inadvertantly breaks the law by accidentally breaking a glass window and killing some plants.

A crime which is punishable by death. The crew is unable to transport Wesley away because the planet is protected by this alien entity which is almost godlike in its power.

Picard gives this great speech about how laws are nice and all but the purpose of a law is to provide justice. So when you have laws that are absolute then no justice is possible and the whole point of having such laws should be called into question.

The god entity thinks Picard is right so Wesley is allowed to leave unharmed.

Great Episode!

 

[Immort]

Lela darlin' we seems ta see eye to eye, I'm guessin' that throwin' dice at yer table would be a blast. I also think that wadin' through the occasional moral quandry that a paladin so often finds himself in is a wonderful thing.

Two campaigns ago the wielder of the "Sadist's Screen" (DM) disagreed with my dispatching of his evil priest. We ended up in an hours long debate over whether it was appropriate ta whack him based on his detecting evil, living in an undead town, and moving aggressively at one of my companions.

Needless to say I imagine it would spark a debate where as many people took the side of the dice jockeys as took the side of the Sadist. In the end the Saidst chose to allow it without penalty.

Heh.

As fer that paladin in evil land with evil laws nonsense, you tell me what paladin or fer that matter god who sponsers paladins would choose to, or approve of the choice to follow the laws of the nine hells. Lawful as all get out, still bad. Lawful good for a paladin is always going to be subject to the laws the paladin's good sets forth. Joe Bob the mayor of Stunkville's law that everyone who enters the town must desecrate an altar of goodness will always be superceded by Tyr's law that says it would be appropriate and necessary to evict him from office.

Come on folks, it is lawful good not lawful stupid.


-Immort

 

[JacktheRabbit]

If you are going to be so rough on Paladins then there should be some benefits. One of those benefits SHOULD be being able to cut through the beaurocratic crap and getting an appointment with someone when you need to.

I mean come on. You made it a powerful and restrictive PrC. That should mean that when one of them shows up the locals (especially if they worship the same god) should really go out of their way to help.

 

[Sammael99]

Great stuff !

Lela,

I love what you're doing with Paladins. From what I read, I think your player will love the fact that his god does not let something like this slip by.

I agree that he should be tested, not judged on the basis of what he did, but I strongly disagree with many posters here who think DMs should be lenient with Paladins because they're "hard to play". The fact that they are hard to play is inherent to the class, and should be enforced, on the contrary, to avoid all the ridiculous conceptions of paladins we see floating around.

In fact, when I started my 3E campaign, I strongly discouraged players from picking a Paladin until they had a feel for the rules and the game world for this very reason. I would accept it if a player picked one now because I would know that he knows how hard it is.

So again, and contrary to most of the flak that's been given to you, great job !

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Yeah, that's why they call it a "moral dilemma", right? Face, it, such dilemma's do exist, and some DM's enjoy putting the paladin in them and seeing him squirm.

The trick is not to punish the Paladin for choosing Law over Good or vice versa, but to judge him on his effort in finding that "secret option 3".

In the case of a country with evil laws, there's a bunch of options available:

- refuse to enter the country
- try to reform the law
- try to prevent the law from being broken
- redefine "legitimate authority" in the paladin's code (e.g. paladin helping freedom fighters)
- the paladin may have an alternative Code that supercedes local laws (I'm all in favor of having Paladin players draft their own Code)
- personally take the blame for breaking the unjust law
.....

So Lela, what happened in your session? Did everything go over well? Did the paladin player enjoy the session? Did you get him to squirm at least a little?

refuse to enter the country: the if I close my eyes evil isn't happening option.

- try to reform the law: the let evil happen until some later date when I can get aorund to stopping it option.

try to prevent the law from being broken: the I'm all knowing and all powerufl option.

redefine "legitimate authority" in the paladin's code (e.g. paladin helping freedom fighters): the hey cool I'm the GM option.

- the paladin may have an alternative Code that supercedes local laws (I'm all in favor of having Paladin players draft their own Code): the I hope all those wishes I wrote when I was a wizard in the alst camapign give me enoughh practice to actually be able to write a code that can work option.

- personally take the blame for breaking the unjust law: the ha-ha its fun when dm fiat kills you option.

Basically option 3 rarely if ever is there in the catch 22 situations. The GM sets up the situation, and it usually goes something like this. You walk into the town sqaure and see and see a organized pit of wood, it looks like amybe there will eb a bonfire tonight. PC"Hey maybe it's a cleabration, lets ask wha't going on." Commoner" what the wood, yeah according to local ordinance 125 we are buring the wich at thes take tonight, as all wiches must be burned accoridng to law." PCs"so your burning an evil wich tonight" Comoner"well she isn't exactly evil, she's used her spells to heal people when they were sick, she saved my kids when they fell into the river, the only time she's used her powers in public though is when she defended the town against the roc raiders, then the guard saw her casting spells and so she was taken captive and here we are" PC paladin"Ack so do we save her and i lose my status or do we watch her burn and i lose my status"

 

[Tzarevitch]

Maybe it is just me, but I fail to see what the paladin did that was so bad that would require an atonement. If you are too quick to call for an atonement every time the paladin does something it looses its punitive value.

I would have Tyr send a celestial steward of some sort (perhaps a deva) to explain in no uncertain terms that he is displeased and leave it hanging at that. Leave it to the player to think about what his character planned to do.

In the alternative. Use it as a chance to encourage roleplaying. Have the deva appear and serve a summons for the paladin and the rogue who was trying to pick the lock to appear before a celestial court on a certain day for a hearing brought by one of the aggrieved goddess' proxies against the paladin and rogue.

At the trial, the goddess' proxy will present evidence before a celestial judge appointed by Tyr (perhaps a trumpet archon) of the deeds of both characters. (Note in the celestial court there is no 5th amendment against self incrimination and being a celestial court it should not be possibble to lie.) The important question that the prosecutor should make the paladin amswer is, "Do you feel that your actions reflect favorably upon your god. Would you be pleased to go before Tyr when you finally die and admit to him, 'I did this . . ?'"

Once the evidence is presented, the proxy can then demand a formal admission of guilt from both parties and restitution in the form of a task that the goddess needs fulfulled.

Also, the paladin should appear in court willingly. If he and/or the rogue don't apear send the celestial bailiffs - perhaps some inevitables from MoP - after them (After all, they were served). If the paladin refuses to appear for a legal proceeding before one of his deity's minions that should be grounds for Tyr to cut him off until he quests and atones.

Tzarevitch