OneDnD Should sorcerers and warlocks get their spell list from their subclass?

So evidently the new class spell lists are being made by a combination of power source and magic school. With bards being arcane spell list, divination, enchantment, illusion, and transmutation schools. While rangers are primal spell list, and all schools apart from evocation.

However sorcerer/warlock subclasses have their own very distinctive themes, and so it makes sense for them to use their own power sources. Why would a divine soul sorcerer and an aberrant mind sorcerer cast the same spells? Each subclass changing the power source and schools of magic available would completely change how each plays.

(Reposted from the subreddit as that place is basically on fire at the moment.)
 

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Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
So evidently the new class spell lists are being made by a combination of power source and magic school. With bards being arcane spell list, divination, enchantment, illusion, and transmutation schools. While rangers are primal spell list, and all schools apart from evocation.

However sorcerer/warlock subclasses have their own very distinctive themes, and so it makes sense for them to use their own power sources. Why would a divine soul sorcerer and an aberrant mind sorcerer cast the same spells? Each subclass changing the power source and schools of magic available would completely change how each plays.

(Reposted from the subreddit as that place is basically on fire at the moment.)
The description of the mage class group specifies that they are Arcane casters, so this won’t happen.
 


Never underestimate the power of nostalgia to doom the sorcerer ("by Lolth, sorcerers were arcane in 3x, and they will be arcane until D&D is no more"). Also, "pick your spell list" is PF2 sorcerer's gig, and I don't know if WotC wants to touch that, no matter how the voting goes.

I suspect the basic spell lists will be arcane, but both sorcerer origins and warlock patrons will likely grant subclass spells (not to mention some warlock invocations) that will come from other lists. It would probably help if the subclass spells went higher than 5th level in 1DnD (since I want fiend and celestial warlocks to get planar ally [a divine spell] and fey warlocks to get conjure fey [a primal spell]), but that might be wishful thinking on my part.
 

CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
I'm very interested in non-arcane sorcerers. I've played a few of them over the years: sorcerers who chose their spells from the cleric, druid, or warlock spell list instead of the sorcerer spell list. It was super-easy to do, and pairing the sorcerer's metamagic abilities with divine spells was a lot of fun.

Like @Charlaquin said, I doubt this will happen in the rules. But it's really easy to house-rule.
 

Haplo781

Legend
So evidently the new class spell lists are being made by a combination of power source and magic school. With bards being arcane spell list, divination, enchantment, illusion, and transmutation schools. While rangers are primal spell list, and all schools apart from evocation.

However sorcerer/warlock subclasses have their own very distinctive themes, and so it makes sense for them to use their own power sources. Why would a divine soul sorcerer and an aberrant mind sorcerer cast the same spells? Each subclass changing the power source and schools of magic available would completely change how each plays.

(Reposted from the subreddit as that place is basically on fire at the moment.)
In all likelihood aberrant mind and divine soul won't be getting updated in PHB.
 

cbwjm

Legend
The description of the mage class group specifies that they are Arcane casters, so this won’t happen.
It could happen, if the default is arcane then they still fit the mage group, but they could pick up another class of spells if they wanted to switch up the bloodlines
 

Bill Zebub

“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
I’d love to see a combination: pick some, and have some dictated by subclass.

But really I’d love to see Wizards have to specialize and make some trade-offs.
 

Draconic and Wild Magic Sorcerers do feel like they would both be arcane casters admittedly, and they're the two most probably PHB candidates.

Divine Soul should definitely use the divine spell list though, and I still think there should be an 'occult' or 'mystic' spell list which a future aberrant mind could use.
 

Marandahir

Crown-Forester (he/him)
Draconic and Wild Magic Sorcerers do feel like they would both be arcane casters admittedly, and they're the two most probably PHB candidates.

Divine Soul should definitely use the divine spell list though, and I still think there should be an 'occult' or 'mystic' spell list which a future aberrant mind could use.
45 Subclasses almost certainly means there's a 3rd subclass for any class that only had 2 subclasses in 2014. 40 subclasses were in the 2014 PHB; 5 classes lacked a 3rd subclass. I wouldn't expect Death Domain Cleric or Oathbreaker Paladin in the 2024 PHB, but would expect a 3rd Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Ranger, and Sorcerer subclass, respectively.

Whether that's a port from another 2015-2023 book or whether that's a brand new subclass in 2024, that's hard to say.
 

I actually like the "partial arcane core plus additions from their subclass spell list" that e.g. divine, clockwork, and aberrant mind sorcerers (and most warlocks) get. But that kinda gets in the way of the One D&D spell list homogeneity.

Dragon Soul on the other hand I want to just have the arcane core ... and actually be able to hang out in the melee line
 

If they are handing out 3rd subclasses (instead of just giving wizards 9 subclasses again), I suspect ancestral guardian for barbarian, college of eloquence for bard, circle of the shepherd for druids, gloomstalker for ranger, and shadow for sorcerer, since all those are somewhat different than the PHB subclasses.
 


It is almost certain that they will include all the 2014 PHB subclasses in the new version, since they are including the same classes and, based on the playtest document, the same spells. That is 2 barbarian subclasses, 2 bard subclasses, 7 cleric subclasses, 2 druid subclasses, 3 fighter subclasses, 3 monk subclasses, 3 paladin subclasses, 2 ranger subclasses, 3 rogue subclasses, 2 sorcerer subclasses, 3 warlock subclasses, and 8 wizard subclasses for a total of 40. That leaves 8 to go.
 

Haplo781

Legend
It is almost certain that they will include all the 2014 PHB subclasses in the new version, since they are including the same classes and, based on the playtest document, the same spells. That is 2 barbarian subclasses, 2 bard subclasses, 7 cleric subclasses, 2 druid subclasses, 3 fighter subclasses, 3 monk subclasses, 3 paladin subclasses, 2 ranger subclasses, 3 rogue subclasses, 2 sorcerer subclasses, 3 warlock subclasses, and 8 wizard subclasses for a total of 40. That leaves 8 to go.
They said 4 per class.
 

It is almost certain that they will include all the 2014 PHB subclasses in the new version, since they are including the same classes and, based on the playtest document, the same spells. That is 2 barbarian subclasses, 2 bard subclasses, 7 cleric subclasses, 2 druid subclasses, 3 fighter subclasses, 3 monk subclasses, 3 paladin subclasses, 2 ranger subclasses, 3 rogue subclasses, 2 sorcerer subclasses, 3 warlock subclasses, and 8 wizard subclasses for a total of 40. That leaves 8 to go.
I'd kind of like wizard schools and cleric domains to be 'pact boon' like options. And then subclasses are the real big changes in playstyle.

Heavily reduces subclass bloat while freeing up the subclasses to be more impactful gameplaywise.
 

Vael

Legend
Given that Subclass progression has apparently been standardized, so Warlocks and Sorcerers won't pick their subclass until 3rd level ... I think not.
 

Gorck

Prince of Dorkness
Given that Subclass progression has apparently been standardized, so Warlocks and Sorcerers won't pick their subclass until 3rd level ... I think not.
We don't know that for sure. The subclasses might be standardized by Class Group for all we know. That would mean Sorcerers and Warlocks might still get theirs at level 1, while Wizards would be pushed up a level from Level 2, if the Mage Group is standardized differently from the Expert Group.
 

We don't know that for sure. The subclasses might be standardized by Class Group for all we know. That would mean Sorcerers and Warlocks might still get theirs at level 1, while Wizards would be pushed up a level from Level 2, if the Mage Group is standardized differently from the Expert Group.
Yeah this is a really good point.

Making wild assumptions about subclass standardization on the limited evidence we have is not a good idea. WotC have said they like the idea of people getting subclasses at L1. The main reason it seems that Experts have it at L3 is all those classes get their subclass at L3, so they avoid incompatibility.

Right now, Sorcerers and Warlocks get their subclass at L1. To move it to L3 would introduce incompatibility! Unnecessarily too. Wizards are likely to have a more drastic subclass change, I suspect, especially as they're going down to 4 PHB subclasses and the changes to spell prep for people like Bards mean they're likely to be largely incompatible with the (honestly mostly boring) existing Wizard subclasses. So they may well either go down to 1 or up to 3. I suspect we'll see something like Bladesinger and three "more serious" takes on school specializations (Evoker, Illusionist, Diviner would be my guess).
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
If we follow the progressions in the 2014 book and just make three small adjustments, then everything works out... such that Experts and Warriors get their subclasses at Level 3... while Priests and Mages get their subclasses at Level 1.

The Druid and Wizard get their subclass bumped up from Level 2 to 1, and the Paladin is the only one who needs to go from Level 3 to 1. Cleric, Sorcerer, and Warlock we already Level 1 and can stay there. And the Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Bard, Ranger, and Rogue were all Level 3 and will probably stick with Level 3.

If I had to make a guess... this could very well be a set-up for the return of the potential "Class group" subclass idea-- subclasses that could be taken by any class in a class group. So a subclass that all Warriors could take for example.
 

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