Should you be able to dodge a fireball by readying an action?

[Mistwell]

Right. But since the target isn't determined until the spell comes into effect, you don't aim the wand at the target until that time.

-Hyp.

I disagree. The spells target isn't determined until then, but to trigger a wand you need to aim it. Which means you must both aim a wand before the spell comes into effect, and determine the target when the spell comes into effect.

If this were a question of the foe casting a spell, I would agree. But the foe is using a wand, which adds the additional mechanics we are debating. Your claim that the mechanics must all happen after or as the spell comes into effect doesn't seem to match the text. To use a wand you must aim the wand, and speak a command word. That implies to me that the aiming and command must come before the spell actually comes into effect. In fact, they are crucial precursors to the spell coming into effect.

 

[Mistwell]

I don't see how the rewording in Rules Compendium changes things, in regards to RW's specific example.

Readying to move "when the bead appears" is the same as readying to move "after he makes his attack roll, but before he rolls damage/before the blow lands". That particular instant of time simply doesn't exist in the D&D game. In the real world, it'd be like trying to run 30 feet "after a person initiates a blink, but before his eyelids meet". It can't be done.

Sure, you can ready to do something "if he attacks". Just like you can ready "if he casts a spell". But in both cases, you pre-empt the entire action. You can't ready to do something that interrupts an action already in motion.

You could ready to drop to the ground if an archer attacks you, but you can't dodge an arrow already in flight. Once the attack die hits the table, you have to resolve the entire attack.

You could ready to move if a wizard casts a fireball at you, but you can't dodge a spell that's already been cast. Once the spell is cast, you have to resolve the entire spell.

Again, this thread is in the rules forum so this is all from a RAW standpoint. By all means, feel free to houserule for dramatic effect or post this thread in the houserules forum. This particular forum is specifically for rules lawyers.

-z

PS: For fireball, yes the bead streaks from point A to point B. But the duration of the spell is "instantaneous". As far as the game is concerned, it literally takes zero time for the bead to travel. Put in "real world" terms, the travel time of a fireball bead is faster than the speed of light. So fast, it's impossible to measure. Impossibly fast. Call it what you will. Yes there is motion, but the motion takes no time at all, and cannot be dodged.

Actually on the contrary I think your assessment of what time periods exist sounds like your own houserule to me. Which is why we are not supposed to be telling people things like "that would make a fine houserule, but this is the rules forum". What is RAW and what is a houserule is a matter of perspective.

From my perspective, if you can describe the activity or "whatever", then it is subject to a readied action. You don't need a separate rule defining that time frame. The ready text says you can do it, and that's all you need to be able to do it (beyond DM adjudicatin, as always).

 

[Hypersmurf]

I disagree. The spells target isn't determined until then, but to trigger a wand you need to aim it. Which means you must both aim a wand before the spell comes into effect, and determine the target when the spell comes into effect.

You can't cast a targeted spell without defining a target. Therefore the determination of target is part of the casting... but a part that doesn't take place until the spell comes into effect. It is, if you like, 'the last step' in the casting, since the decision is made at the very conclusion of the casting.

So it's possible to aim the wand as part of the activation, while still deciding your target as the spell comes into effect, without contradiction - the aiming is the last step in the activation of the wand, just as selection of target is the last step in the casting of a spell.

We know you can't cast a targeted spell with no target; we know you don't select the target until the spell comes into effect. This dictates that target selection is a necessary part of the casting, and also dictates that it happens right at the end; the logic is no different for a wand.

-Hyp.

 

[Nifft]

Hyp, I though that by ignoring this, you meant you agreed with it.

How can you reconcile a hardline "decisions-at-casting" stance with the Holding the Charge rules? Touch spells grant you an attack just like ray spells do, but the attack is not integral to the spell -- you can cast the spell, then move & deliver the effect, despite the spells being instantaneous and having a target entry (which means you must choose a target at casting, yes?).

Clearly, targeting is not a decision which must be made when the spell comes into effect for Touch spells.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Hypersmurf]

Hyp, I though that by ignoring this, you meant you agreed with it. Cheers, -- N

I think targeting is a decision made when the spell comes into effect for touch spells unless you're holding the charge or moving between cast-and-touch.

Like any rule, there's an implicit 'unless otherwise specified' attached. You apply 1.5x Str bonus to damage with a one-handed melee weapon wielded in two hands... unless it's a rapier. Does that mean the original rule is wrong? Or that the rapier is wrong? No, it means the rapier has specifically superceded the general rule.

Nothing about fireball contradicts deciding the area of the spell when the spell comes into effect.

-Hyp.

 

[Nifft]

In the case of fireball, note that the same principle could apply, thanks to this bit: "If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must 'hit' the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely."

This argument doesn't generally apply to area effects, so I don't like it, but I'll take it as a freestanding support.

Cheers, -- N

PS: Would you mind showing me where the Touch spells say that they break this rule? I know we generally agree that's how they work, but I couldn't find explicit support spelled out for their behavior.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Actually on the contrary I think your assessment of what time periods exist sounds like your own houserule to me. Which is why we are not supposed to be telling people things like "that would make a fine houserule, but this is the rules forum". What is RAW and what is a houserule is a matter of perspective.

I have no response to this.

From my perspective, if you can describe the activity or "whatever", then it is subject to a readied action. You don't need a separate rule defining that time frame. The ready text says you can do it, and that's all you need to be able to do it (beyond DM adjudicatin, as always).

At some point, the mechanics of the game have to be enacted. Take turns, for instance. They occur one after the other. Bob goes, then Larry goes. Sure, the turns take place during the same six second period but the game engine executed turns sequentially.

For the Fireball spell, the entire spell goes off and takes effect in the same tick of the game clock. It's already broken down into the smallest possible unit of time, and cannot be further divided. Casting fireball in D&D is like typing "fireball" in a word doc and hitting the print button. Either the page prints, or it doesn't. Either the spell is cast and takes complete effect, or the spell isn't cast at all.

Look at the implications: if you allow interruption of an action in motion, you could (for example) "Ready to move if the monster's attack roll looks like it will hit/beats my armor class". Ridiculous. You could "ready a move if the bad guy pulls the trigger on his gun". Silly. You could even "ready to move after the 4th, but before the 5th, d6 of the enemy's fireball damages me."

No. At some point, the game tick cannot be further subdivided.

 

[Mistwell]

You can't cast a targeted spell without defining a target. Therefore the determination of target is part of the casting... but a part that doesn't take place until the spell comes into effect. It is, if you like, 'the last step' in the casting, since the decision is made at the very conclusion of the casting.

I know. But I am not speaking to the requirements to cast a spell. I am speaking to the requirements to trigger a wand, which allows one to cast a spell. They are different (additional) requirements.

So it's possible to aim the wand as part of the activation, while still deciding your target as the spell comes into effect, without contradiction - the aiming is the last step in the activation of the wand, just as selection of target is the last step in the casting of a spell.

But if you aim at a target that is different than the target you choose for the spell, you have no longer met the triggering requirements of a wand. You must aim at your target, and you must do that before the wand's spell is activated.

We know you can't cast a targeted spell with no target;

You can I think, but it fizzles.

we know you don't select the target until the spell comes into effect. This dictates that target selection is a necessary part of the casting, and also dictates that it happens right at the end; the logic is no different for a wand.

-Hyp.

No it's not different, it just ignores the additional requirements of using a wand.

In my view, the order of operation is:

1) Manipulate Wand
2) Point Wand At Target - Note, must match #4 below or else wand use fails
3) Speak Command Word
4) Make all decisions concerning spell, including targeting. Note, target must match #2, above, or else wand use fails.

If I ready an action to move at step 2, then step 4 can no longer match the targeting of step 2. Now since you have not spoken the command word, the wand hasn't gone off yet. So you could re-manipulate the wand, point it again, and continue. But I would think that would take another action of some sort.

 

[Zurai]

In my view, the order of operation is:

1) Manipulate Wand
2) Point Wand At Target - Note, must match #4 below or else wand use fails
3) Speak Command Word
4) Make all decisions concerning spell, including targeting. Note, target must match #2, above, or else wand use fails.

If I ready an action to move at step 2, then step 4 can no longer match the targeting of step 2. Now since you have not spoken the command word, the wand hasn't gone off yet. So you could re-manipulate the wand, point it again, and continue. But I would think that would take another action of some sort.

Your view is wrong.

Activation

Wands use the spell trigger activation method, so casting a spell from a wand is usually a standard action that doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity. (If the spell being cast, however, has a longer casting time than 1 standard action, it takes that long to cast the spell from a wand.) To activate a wand, a character must hold it in hand (or whatever passes for a hand, for nonhumanoid creatures) and point it in the general direction of the target or area. A wand may be used while grappling or while swallowed whole.

No requirement to point it exactly at the target. No requirement that pointing the wand comes before targetting the spell.

In short, steps 2 and 4 of your chart are not correct (and step 3 could occur at any time, really), leaving your conclusion without a foundation.

 

[Thurbane]

You're absolutely correct. Poor choice of words on my part. Duration and instantaneous have specific game mechanic connotations.

My point is that the effect of the spell is instant/instantaneous. It takes zero time for the bead to emerge, travel, and detonate.

Actually, thats what I was trying to say when Zurai so kindly corrected me.